Re: Dr J Sarfati's book review of Ronald Numbers' "The Creationists"

Re: Safarti's "review" of Numbers' book: this is a typical Safarti trash
job, in that he engages in ad hominem characterizations of Numbers and
ignores most of the content of the book. It's not really a review of
anything.

----- Original Message -----
From: "gordon brown" <gbrown@euclid.colorado.edu>
To: "Hon Wai Lai" <honwai@bumble.u-net.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: Dr J Sarfati's book review of Ronald Numbers' "The
Creationists"

> Hon Wai,
>
> This is a hurried response.
>
> In view of what he himself has to say about Numbers, some of what Sarfati
> accuses Numbers of is ironic.
>
> The Numbers book is about history. Henry Morris's statement on the book
> jacket apparently confirms that the history is correct. Apostates can
> write accurate history. The book does not compare flood geology with
> Scripture. That has been done by others.
>
> The claim about YECs never having heard of Price is not surprising since
> Morris has obviously not been anxious for people to know about Price.
>
> Sarfati tries to make it seem as if flood geology is old by replacing it
> by generic YECism and talking about how old that is.
>
> No doubt some of what Mrs. White says she saw in her vision was derived
> from some outdated geological theories. Let the geologists on this list
> comment on how much geology was attributed to the Flood by leading
> geologists at some time in history.
>
> Gordon Brown
> Department of Mathematics
> University of Colorado
> Boulder, CO 80309-0395
>
>
> On Mon, 9 May 2005, Hon Wai Lai wrote:
>
>> Gordon,
>>
>> (Umm, just noticed you share the name with the UK's Chancellor to the
>> Treasury, widely tipped to be the next UK Prime Minister...)
>>
>> Here is a predictable negative review by J Sarfati. Do you want to
>> comment on his review?
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0520083938/ref=cm_rev_
>> next/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8
>> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0520083938/ref=cm_rev
>> _next/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-S
>> ubmissionDate&n=283155&customer-reviews.start=11&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER>
>> &customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155&customer-reviews.st
>> art=11&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews
>> /stars-2-0.gif> A biased distortion of creationist history, March 31,
>> 2000
>>
>>
>> Reviewer:
>> <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A1XLEBP9QSTJCP/
>> 1/ref=cm_cr_auth/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8> Dr. J. Sarfati
>> (Brisbane, Queensland Australia) - See
>> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1XLEBP9QSTJCP/ref=cm_cr_au
>> th/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8> all my reviews
>>
>> <file:///exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/13158871/pop-up/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help/104-
>> 8419911-6208763#RN> (REAL NAME)
>> It is simply a fact to point out that Numbers is an 'apostate' -- the
>> word means someone who has fallen away from his professed faith. Numbers
>> made it clear that used the Yellowstone petrified 'forests' as an excuse
>> to abandon creationism and his professed faith in biblical Christianity.
>> His bias should be noted when reading his book.
>>
>> One irony is that many uniformitarian scientists now believe that the
>> Yellowstone were not a succession of forests which were buried in situ,
>> but were catastrophically uprooted and transported as a floating log
>> mat, and later the logs sank root-end first into the lake bottom. See
>> the Answers in Genesis site.
>>
>> Numbers' book majors heavily on personalities, with subtle (and some
>> not-so-subtle) character assassinations, while the high scientific
>> qualifications of many creationists are downplayed. He invariably gives
>> the last word to the evolutionist, which often leaves an impression
>> contrary to the facts as can be seen upon checking the original sources.
>> See also review by Prof. Edgar Andrews, _Origins_ (Journal of the
>> Biblical Creation Society) 8(20):21-23, 1995.
>>
>> Many atheists and their compromising evangelical lackeys have followed
>> Numbers' ploy of attributing biblical creationism and flood geology to
>> 'the visions of an Adventist prophetess [Ellen White]' via George
>> McCready Price. A number of papers by Dr Terry Mortenson in the
>> _Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal_ show that the early 19th century
>> Scriptural Geologists presented such ideas well before Price. And the
>> founder of Answers in Genesis (USA), Ken Ham, pointed out that he had
>> never even heard of Price at the time he founded CSF/AiG, and that he
>> adopted creationism because of the biblical teaching.
>>
>> Even Henry Morris's naive off-the-cuff "endorsement" of this book can't
>> change the incontrovertable FACTS of history: that YEC was the historic
>> view of the Christian Church from LONG before Ellen White -- Basil the
>> Great, Martin Luther and John Calvin all believed in 6 literal days, and
>> even allegorisers like Origen and Augustine furiously denounced pagan
>> ideas that claimed the earth was older than 6-10 thousand year.
>>
>> Note that even if Numbers were right about Price, he and all those whon
>> gleefully parrot him are wrong to think that discrediting Price is
>> enough to refute creationism -- this is a classic case of the genetic
>> fallacy.
>>
>> One useful thing in his book is that he exposes the 'strained efforts'
>> of re-interpreting Scripture to fit evolution, and the deceit of some
>> theistic evolutionary college professors '[s]tretching the truth to the
>> breaking point' (p. 182) when trying to hide what they really believed
>> from conservative parents and donors.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of gordon brown
>> Sent: 08 May 2005 00:07
>> To: Hon Wai Lai
>> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: RE: Non-truths that do not transform
>>
>>
>> The history is meticulously documented in "The Creationists: The
>> Evolution of Scientific Creationism" by Ronald Numbers (published by
>> Knopf).
>>
>> Gordon Brown
>> Department of Mathematics
>> University of Colorado
>> Boulder, CO 80309-0395
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Received on Mon May 9 20:32:06 2005