Re: Dr J Sarfati's book review of Ronald Numbers' "The Creationists"

Hon Wai,

This is a hurried response.

In view of what he himself has to say about Numbers, some of what Sarfati
accuses Numbers of is ironic.

The Numbers book is about history. Henry Morris's statement on the book
jacket apparently confirms that the history is correct. Apostates can
write accurate history. The book does not compare flood geology with
Scripture. That has been done by others.

The claim about YECs never having heard of Price is not surprising since
Morris has obviously not been anxious for people to know about Price.

Sarfati tries to make it seem as if flood geology is old by replacing it
by generic YECism and talking about how old that is.

No doubt some of what Mrs. White says she saw in her vision was derived
from some outdated geological theories. Let the geologists on this list
comment on how much geology was attributed to the Flood by leading
geologists at some time in history.

Gordon Brown
Department of Mathematics
University of Colorado
Boulder, CO 80309-0395

On Mon, 9 May 2005, Hon Wai Lai wrote:

> Gordon,
>
> (Umm, just noticed you share the name with the UK's Chancellor to the
> Treasury, widely tipped to be the next UK Prime Minister...)
>
> Here is a predictable negative review by J Sarfati. Do you want to
> comment on his review?
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0520083938/ref=cm_rev_
> next/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0520083938/ref=cm_rev
> _next/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-S
> ubmissionDate&n=283155&customer-reviews.start=11&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER>
> &customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155&customer-reviews.st
> art=11&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER
>
>
>
>
> <http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews
> /stars-2-0.gif> A biased distortion of creationist history, March 31,
> 2000
>
>
> Reviewer:
> <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/A1XLEBP9QSTJCP/
> 1/ref=cm_cr_auth/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8> Dr. J. Sarfati
> (Brisbane, Queensland Australia) - See
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1XLEBP9QSTJCP/ref=cm_cr_au
> th/104-8419911-6208763?%5Fencoding=UTF8> all my reviews
>
> <file:///exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/13158871/pop-up/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help/104-
> 8419911-6208763#RN> (REAL NAME)
> It is simply a fact to point out that Numbers is an 'apostate' -- the
> word means someone who has fallen away from his professed faith. Numbers
> made it clear that used the Yellowstone petrified 'forests' as an excuse
> to abandon creationism and his professed faith in biblical Christianity.
> His bias should be noted when reading his book.
>
> One irony is that many uniformitarian scientists now believe that the
> Yellowstone were not a succession of forests which were buried in situ,
> but were catastrophically uprooted and transported as a floating log
> mat, and later the logs sank root-end first into the lake bottom. See
> the Answers in Genesis site.
>
> Numbers' book majors heavily on personalities, with subtle (and some
> not-so-subtle) character assassinations, while the high scientific
> qualifications of many creationists are downplayed. He invariably gives
> the last word to the evolutionist, which often leaves an impression
> contrary to the facts as can be seen upon checking the original sources.
> See also review by Prof. Edgar Andrews, _Origins_ (Journal of the
> Biblical Creation Society) 8(20):21-23, 1995.
>
> Many atheists and their compromising evangelical lackeys have followed
> Numbers' ploy of attributing biblical creationism and flood geology to
> 'the visions of an Adventist prophetess [Ellen White]' via George
> McCready Price. A number of papers by Dr Terry Mortenson in the
> _Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal_ show that the early 19th century
> Scriptural Geologists presented such ideas well before Price. And the
> founder of Answers in Genesis (USA), Ken Ham, pointed out that he had
> never even heard of Price at the time he founded CSF/AiG, and that he
> adopted creationism because of the biblical teaching.
>
> Even Henry Morris's naive off-the-cuff "endorsement" of this book can't
> change the incontrovertable FACTS of history: that YEC was the historic
> view of the Christian Church from LONG before Ellen White -- Basil the
> Great, Martin Luther and John Calvin all believed in 6 literal days, and
> even allegorisers like Origen and Augustine furiously denounced pagan
> ideas that claimed the earth was older than 6-10 thousand year.
>
> Note that even if Numbers were right about Price, he and all those whon
> gleefully parrot him are wrong to think that discrediting Price is
> enough to refute creationism -- this is a classic case of the genetic
> fallacy.
>
> One useful thing in his book is that he exposes the 'strained efforts'
> of re-interpreting Scripture to fit evolution, and the deceit of some
> theistic evolutionary college professors '[s]tretching the truth to the
> breaking point' (p. 182) when trying to hide what they really believed
> from conservative parents and donors.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of gordon brown
> Sent: 08 May 2005 00:07
> To: Hon Wai Lai
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: Non-truths that do not transform
>
>
> The history is meticulously documented in "The Creationists: The
> Evolution of Scientific Creationism" by Ronald Numbers (published by
> Knopf).
>
> Gordon Brown
> Department of Mathematics
> University of Colorado
> Boulder, CO 80309-0395
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Mon May 9 17:40:54 2005