Edward Hassertt wrote:
Sorry I typed the wrong digit
unlike you I am not infallible:
Just because you haven't seen me make any mistakes yet doesn't mean I
couldn't.
Can any hide himself in
secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill
heaven and earth? saith the LORD - 24
Jeremiah 23:34 - God fills
all the universe, nature cannot be studied neutrally because God is
present in all of it.
No one here argues the who or the why. God created all things and
for His glory. The how and when are open for investigation.
You appear to be a progressive creationist. Belief in an old earth
and species specially created by God without shared, common ancestry
between species. You are so evasive. Why didn't you just say
at the outset what you believed instead of attacking everybody
else?
By
what process does life evolve? That was the question I
believe.
No it wasn't but I indulge
you. Scripture doesn't say it evolved, that is what is in dispute.
There are a lot of scientific terms not found in Scripture. That
shouldn't surprise you. What would explain pseudo genes and
retroviral sequences found in the DNA of animals that appear to be
closely related on the basis of morphology - such as rats and mice for
example. Evolution explains that nicely, special creation does
not.
Begging the question is not
convincing.
Acts 4: 24: "And when they heard that, they lifted up
their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which
hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is
..."
Acts 4: 24 God made
everything in the earth, not just the start, everything that lives
Yes,
and how did speciation occur?
Scripture says God created them
that way, and they were to reproduce after their own
kind.
You are putting words in God's mouth. Isn't there a term for
that?
And
so how do stars form? Where do comets come from? What are the
dynamics of a "black hole"?
God created them too. Nothing
exists that he did not create.
Yes, God created all things. That isn't the question. For
example, our sun is a second generation star. The elements in the
earth were cooked down in at least one nova, and our solar system formed
from the raw elements that resulted. Now that says
"how." Why do you avoid these kinds of
explanations?
You
could be absolutely right. No question. But that is not
implicit in these verses. What happened after God rested on the
seventh day, that day we live in now? What is He doing while He is
resting?
It says clearly in the verse that
he is upholding all things.
That doesn't tell us the extent of his involvement or
noninvolvement. When amphibians came from fish, what was God
doing? Or did God create amphibians in a miraculous act, but sort
of along the same body plans as previously existing fish? Don't be
bashful. Spell it all out for us. You don't like our
explanations. Tell us yours.
If there is not presence for God in
your evolutionary doctrine then your evolutionary doctrine is false
because scripture says he is in all things.
Agreed. So when organisms speciate, God pulls the switches.
Is that your point? And when genetic defects occur due to
deleterious gene mutations, then oops, God must have pulled the wrong
switch. Is that how it works?
The
land is defiled because they have transgressed the laws, etc. What
happens when we create waste dumps, or pollute the oceans, or denude the
forests, or strip mine, or pour soot in the atmosphere? Same
thing. Now, as I remember, your original complaint had to do with
evolution, did it not?
No it didn't. You keep
twisting it that way because you want to dismiss me as a YEC so you don't
have to treat me like a human being in this discussion. If you can
attach that label to me, then you feel you can dismiss me out of hand
without actually dealing with what I am saying. Sorry to disappoint
you, I believe in an Old Earth, the fundamental principle of evolution
etc.
No one could label you at all, you just criticized without offering a
better explanation. You seem to be an OEC, not a YEC. Since
you don't like the theory of evolution as a viable explanation, what is
your theory of creation? We might like it. Who
knows?
Christians
should start with learning how to interpret
Scripture.
But you were saying we couldn't
interpret scripture correctly without the findings of science.
Which is it?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised when one who puts words in God's mouth
also tries to put them in mine. Science and history can clarify,
keep us from making mistakes in interpretation in some instances.
Science does not judge Scripture. All science and history can do is
to help us so we don't make ignorant mistakes. Interpretation with
an attitude of obliviousness to all extra-biblical evidence, even
when it may be relevant, is a simply a form of arrogance, or as Peter
called it "willingly ignorant."
No,
scientists derive their theories based upon their observations of
nature. They don't impose theories on nature.
They
don't? You mean the theory under which one operates never
influences how data is interpreted, classified, or weighed? I find
that very hard to believe.
"Never" is the operative word. Scientists are human
too. But data and evidence are supposed to drive theories, not the
other way around.
Okay,
I'll bite, how did He create them? What was the process? If
we had a movie camera, what would we see?
God said he spoke them into
existence.
Now there is where I would like to see a specific chapter and
verse.
Since science keeps changing
its mind about how these processes occurred, what would a movie camera in
your universe show us?
Science revises theories with new evidence. That's how science
works. Of course scientists can change their minds. If all
the answers were already known why look further. That's the beauty
of science, it can modify theories or toss out old ones when a new theory
better fits the data. And we can always find more data. The
steady state universe gave way to Big Bang cosmology with the discovery
of new data. Eventually, punctuated equilibrium may displace
Darwin's gradualism. At the moment, there is insufficient
conclusive data.
Are you seriously claiming science
has no presuppositions?
Natural explanations are part of science. You can criticize that if
you want, but miracles are rather untestable, and largely
unrepeatable.
God
created the universe which resulted in planet Earth. The earth has
oceans and an ocean floor. Recently the floor shifted and a tsunami
caused the deaths of over 155,000 people. Your god of continual
causation killed those people. My God who allows secondary causes
in nature was not responsible. Simple as
that.
So if I allow a little girl to be
hit by a car when I have the power to save her, that gets me off the
hook.
God does exactly that and you don't impugn Him.
Judging God by men's
standards is just wrong. So in your universe, is God powerless to
stop tragedy?
God can constrain Himself from acting, or He can jump in and act if He
wants to. It's not a question of power it is a question of
will.
Dick Fischer -
Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org
Received on Thu Jan 20 23:25:54 2005