Re: Cobb County

I appreciate Vernon's honesty as well. Up until now, I had thought the
view that *Satan* creates the appearance of age and history to deceive
human was part of an "urban legend" used by creationist castigators as a
risible strawman. A God that would allow Satan to make such elaborate
deception is IMHO very cruel.

Roger

George -- did you mean "unambiguously" below?

> Vernon -
>
> Thanks you for making clear, as I don't think you have in the past on this
> list, your acceptance of the fact that the kind of data you refer to
> points by itself ambiguously (?)
> to an ancient earth and universe, as well as your acceptance of the most
> thorough apparent age argument. As long as you hold this position then
> everybody else will now realize that it is completely pointless to talk to
> you about any scientific evidence in this connection.
>
> Even though you speak of "refuting" my argument, you have done no such
> thing. Your position is, as I noted, practically equivalent to the
> Manichaean one. I don't like to throw the H word around casually but I
> think it would not be unfair to call your view, in one of those careful
> Roman phrases, "tantamount to heresy."
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vernon Jenkins
> To: George Murphy ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Cobb County
>
>
> George,
>
> In response to my email of 18 Jan you wrote:
>
> "If Satan has such complete control over the world and human minds to
> make the great preponderance of evidence point toward a false picture of
> origins then Satan is, for all intents and purposes, the creator of the
> world we inhabit and of which we are part. This idea has always been
> recognized as a heresy -Manicheanism - by the Christian church. And if
> you then argue that Satan is in fact subservient to God then you are
> right back to the problem that Dave points out - that God is (albeit
> through the agency of Satan) deceitful."
>
> Before moving on to refute these ideas, permit me to point to some
> further weapons in Satan's armoury: overseeing pyrotechnic displays in
> the heavens (e.g. SN 1987A); manipulating the speed of light and rates
> of decay of radioisotopes; laying false trails in the geologic column
> and ice-sheets; and so on. Such are well within his capabilities - and,
> with God's approval, must occur.
>
> Now, while at first sight your defence of the Establishment position
> appears invincible, it ignores the general context within which my
> claims are being made viz the acceptance of the Judeo-Christian
> Scriptures as a body of divinely-revealed truth. In support of this
> understanding, let me quote the Apostle Paul: "All scripture (meaning
> the whole Bible) is given by inspiration of God..." (2Tm.3:16). He
> clearly regards it, in its entirety, as utterly true, for he continues,
> "...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
> instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect...". We
> therefore infer that the Bible's express purpose is to provide our souls
> with fundamental and necessary information that, otherwise, would be
> eternally hidden from us; as, for example, man's true nature (Gen.8:21,
> Jer.17:9), his need of salvation, and the way of salvation. Observe that
> included with this information are a number of significant warnings; of
> particular relevance are those relating to people who reject God
> (Ro.1:20-25) and those who take issue with what He has written -seeking
> to bring it into line with their own preconceived notions (2Pet.3:16).
>
> God's response to those who attempt to supplant His account of creation
> by devising and promoting a philosophy (which, in fact, has the wider
> effect of challenging the whole of his revelation) must be _to give up
> on them_; they having become impossible to reason with. [I suggest that,
> as parents, we meet the same kind of problem when confronted with a
> child who obstinately refuses to accept the truth we tell him - and are
> likely to respond in the same way!]. But He might well go further when
> Satan comes along with his requests (as, for example, Job 1:6-12), by
> granting wide-ranging permission _to fulfil the expectations_ of those
> who have rejected God, His word, and its warnings.
>
> Is God, then, deceitful? No, for God has provided a true account of
> things as they really are; in particular, Satan's character and peculiar
> function have been revealed - complete with a working example (i.e. the
> matter of Job), as also have the appropriate warnings against unbelief.
> Surely, the responsibility for all that now occurs falls on the
> individual who has rendered himself wilfully ignorant of these matters
> and has thereby placed himself outside the grace of God.
>
> Shalom
> Vernon
> www.otherbiblecode.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: George Murphy
> To: Vernon Jenkins ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Cobb County
>
>
> Vernon -
> If Satan has such complete control over the world and human minds
> to make the great preponderance of evidence point toward a false
> picture of origins then Satan is, for all intents and purposes,
> the creator of the world we inhabit and of which we are part.
> This idea has always been recognized as a heresy - Manicheanism -
> by the Christian church. And if you then argue that Satan is in
> fact subservient to God then you are right back to the problem
> that Dave points out - that God is (albeit through the agency of
> Satan) deceitful.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vernon Jenkins
> To: D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Cobb County
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Your email of 17 Jan included the following: "If the Creator
> produced this universe about 6000 years ago so that any rational
> observer thinks it is billions of years old, he is deliberately
> deceitful. Bluntly, your deity is a liar." A serious charge, indeed.
> You later go on to say, "I do vigorously oppose scientism,
> materialism, dogmatic naturalism, all positions which deny the God
> who is Truth.", and I am thus encouraged to offer a brief scriptural
> defence of my position.
>
> It seems to me that the one biblical character Christians find it
> hardest to talk about - or even acknowledge - is Satan. Yet our
> Lord describes him as "...the prince of this world..." (Jn.14:30)
> and "...a liar, and the father of it." (Jn.8:44). The apostles also
> warn us of him - notably in Eph.6:11 where Paul, speaking to
> believers, writes, "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be
> able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Yes, Satan - our
> adversary (1Pet.5:8) - is a real and powerful being; nevertheless,
> he is subservient to God (Job 1:6-12, 2:1-6) - and it appears that
> he is there, _unintentionally_ performing an important role in the
> unfathomable purposes of God.
>
> Now, on the basis of these revelations, one has to ask why many
> Christians appear to believe that a consideration of the _physical_
> evidences alone is sufficient to sustain the confident claims made
> in respect of the age of the earth and God's method of creating. The
> answer is again to be found in the Scriptures where we read "...for
> the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth..." (Gen.8:21)
>
> To summarise: my God is no liar; His word is true in its entirety.
> In believing differently, you have failed to heed its clear warnings
> and, in my view, have become embroiled in a gross deception. An
> eminent evangelical theologian here in the UK has described
> Darwin's, The Origin of Species as "more responsible for undermining
> people's faith and belief in the Scriptures, and in God's way of
> salvation, than any other single book." What a coup for Satan that
> was! - mass delusion on a world-wide scale - yet, in the wisdom of
> God, permitted, so that His sovereign purposes might be fulfilled.

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