Re: Cobb County

Dick Fischer wrote:

>
>> He creates - Genesis 1
>
> And when God commands, "Let the earth bring forth ...", and, "Let the
> waters bring forth ...", what does that mean to you?
>
> Let me add the Scripture verses so we can see your conclusions side by
> side.
>
> Jeremiah 23:34: And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the
> people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish
> that man and his house.

Sorry I typed the wrong digit unlike you I am not infallible:

 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith
the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD - 24

>
>> Jeremiah 23:34 - God fills all the universe, nature cannot be studied
>> neutrally because God is present in all of it.
>
>
> You must be using an out of date edition.
>
> Isaiah 42:5: "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens,
> and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which
> cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and
> spirit to them that walk therein ... "
>
>> Isaiah 42:5 He created all and gave life to everything that has life
>> on earth
>
>
> By what process does life evolve? That was the question I believe.

No it wasn't but I indulge you. Scripture doesn't say it evolved, that
is what is in dispute. Begging the question is not convincing.

>
> Acts 4: 24: "And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to
> God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made
> heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is ..."
>
>> Acts 4: 24 God made everything in the earth, not just the start,
>> everything that lives
>
> Yes, and how did speciation occur?

Scripture says God created them that way, and they were to reproduce
after their own kind.

>
> Colossians 1:15-17: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the
> firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that
> are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
> they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all
> things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things,
> and by him all things consist. "
>
>> Colossians 1:15-17 - He keeps things in existence and holds all the
>> universe together constantly.
>
>
> And so how do stars form? Where do comets come from? What are the
> dynamics of a "black hole"?

God created them too. Nothing exists that he did not create.

>
> Hebrews 1:2-3: "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
> whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the
> worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image
> of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when
> he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the
> Majesty on high ..."
>
>> Hebrews 1:2-3 - He maintains, and guide the universe constantly and
>> sustains him, without his constant action it would fall apart
>
>
> You could be absolutely right. No question. But that is not implicit
> in these verses. What happened after God rested on the seventh day,
> that day we live in now? What is He doing while He is resting?

It says clearly in the verse that he is upholding all things.

>
> Psalm 148: "Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens:
> praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye
> him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye
> stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that
> be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he
> commanded, and they were created." (And etc.)
>
>> Psalm 148 - the universe itself praises God so study of it could
>> never be neutral!
>
>
> No argument from me. All creation should praise His holy name.
> Agreed. Now, what does that have to do with mutual-shared common
> ancestry for all of God's creatures - the heart of evolutionary doctrine?

It was not the issue, you seem to want to twist the conversation that
way so fine. If there is not presence for God in your evolutionary
doctrine then your evolutionary doctrine is false because scripture says
he is in all things.

>
> (I have included more of the chapter to give perspective)
>
> Isaiah 24:1-5: Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it
> waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the
> inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the
> priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so
> with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the
> lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the
> giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly
> spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. 4 The earth mourneth and
> fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people
> of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the
> inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed
> the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
>
>> Isaiah 24:4 - even nature is in pain because of sin, that pain itself
>> could be read in science as a distorted history which could deceive
>> the neutral scientist.
>
>
> Read the entire section. The word "earth" is the same as "land" in
> Hebrew.

Sometimes yes, are you a Hebrew linguist now too? Even with 4 semesters
of Hebrew and serving for 8 years as a professional linguist in other
languages I wouldn't call myself a Hebrew scholar, yet I know the word
shifts with meaning within verses according to context and articles present.

> The land is defiled because they have transgressed the laws, etc.
> What happens when we create waste dumps, or pollute the oceans, or
> denude the forests, or strip mine, or pour soot in the atmosphere?
> Same thing. Now, as I remember, your original complaint had to do
> with evolution, did it not?

No it didn't. You keep twisting it that way because you want to dismiss
me as a YEC so you don't have to treat me like a human being in this
discussion. If you can attach that label to me, then you feel you can
dismiss me out of hand without actually dealing with what I am saying.
Sorry to disappoint you, I believe in an Old Earth, the fundamental
principle of evolution etc.

>
>> So when a Christian interprets what he sees in nature be scripture he
>> is imposes scripture on nature.
>
>
> Christians should start with learning how to interpret Scripture.

But you were saying we couldn't interpret scripture correctly without
the findings of science. Which is it?

>
>> But when the scientist does the exact same thing, imposing his
>> scientific theories on nature, then it is just making logical
>> conclusions. that is quite hypocritical for an objectively neutral
>> discipline.
>
>
> No, scientists derive their theories based upon their observations of
> nature. They don't impose theories on nature.

They don't? You mean the theory under which one operates never
influences how data is interpreted, classified, or weighed? I find that
very hard to believe.

>
>>>> So you admit, man has authority over GOd and man's view can be
>>>> imposed on nature, while God's revelation cannot!
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, you have the Book. Give us chapter and verse. How did God
>>> cause mammals to evolve from reptiles?
>>
>
>> He didn't. He created them as his word says.
>
>
> Okay, I'll bite, how did He create them? What was the process? If we
> had a movie camera, what would we see?

God said he spoke them into existence. Since science keeps changing its
mind about how these processes occurred, what would a movie camera in
your universe show us?

>
>> To claim the bible must explain atheistic science which seeks to
>> remove God from the equation and be "neutral" about God is the
>> problem of your science.
>
>
> Science doesn't seek anything of the kind. Science tries to explain.
> Can scientists go overboard? Yes. But you are trying to indict a
> means of knowing that has no presuppositions

Are you seriously claiming science has no presuppositions? I at least
thought you were an honest man until hat statement.

> by imposing your own presuppositions based upon how you interpret
> Scripture which doesn't look all that good to me.
>
>> You claim science can be neutral when nothing sinful man does can
>> ever be neutral.
>
>
> Including interpreting Scripture.
>
>> Scripture cannot explain atheistic science because atheistic science
>> tells too many lies about the universe to support its dismissal of
>> God from the equation.
>
>
> I don't know any good "lies" about the universe. Perhaps you do?
>
>> Your myth of neutrality acts in exactly the same way, removing God
>> from what he has created, sustains, and upholds as if that were even
>> possible.
>
>
> You're confusing cause with process. No one on this list (that I
> know of) denies God as the First Cause. Secondary causes may not
> require God's direct involvement. God created all things including
> viruses. Viruses cause disease. God doesn't cause disease.
>
> God created the universe which resulted in planet Earth. The earth
> has oceans and an ocean floor. Recently the floor shifted and a
> tsunami caused the deaths of over 155,000 people. Your god of
> continual causation killed those people. My God who allows secondary
> causes in nature was not responsible. Simple as that.

So if I allow a little girl to be hit by a car when I have the power to
save her, that gets me off the hook. Judging God by men's standards is
just wrong. So in your universe, is God powerless to stop tragedy?

>
> Dick Fischer - Genesis Proclaimed Association
> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
> <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>

-- 
.......................................................................................
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between 
classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every 
human heart   -  Alexander Solzhenitsyn
.......................................................................................
Edward J. Hassertt
Reason By Faith
Auburn, Washington
http://www.reasonbyfaith.org
Christian Legal Discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advocatusdeus/