Edward Hassertt wrote:
Dick Fischer wrote:
Okay, cite your Scripture verses. How does God act in
nature? Be specific.
Just to start"
He creates - Genesis 1
And when God commands, "Let the earth bring forth ...", and,
"Let the waters bring forth ...", what does that mean to
you?
Let me add the Scripture verses so we can see your conclusions side by
side.
Jeremiah 23:34:
And as for the prophet, and the priest, and
the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish
that man and his house.
Jeremiah 23:34 - God fills
all the universe, nature cannot be studied neutrally because God is
present in all of it.
You must be using an out of date edition.
Isaiah 42:5: "
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created
the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and
that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon
it, and spirit to them that walk therein ... "
Isaiah 42:5 He created all
and gave life to everything that has life on earth
By what process does life evolve? That was the question I
believe.
Acts 4: 24: "
And when they heard that, they lifted up
their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which
hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is
..."
Acts 4: 24 God made
everything in the earth, not just the start, everything that lives
Yes, and how did speciation occur?
Colossians 1:15-17: "
Who is the image of the invisible
God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things
created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and
invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or
powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is
before all things, and by him all things consist. "
Colossians 1:15-17 -
He keeps things in existence and holds all the universe together
constantly.
And so how do stars form? Where do comets come from? What are
the dynamics of a "black hole"?
Hebrews 1:2-3: "
Hath in these last days spoken unto us
by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he
made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the
express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his
power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand
of the Majesty on high ..."
Hebrews 1:2-3 - He
maintains, and guide the universe constantly and sustains him, without
his constant action it would fall apart
You could be absolutely right. No question. But that is not
implicit in these verses. What happened after God rested on the
seventh day, that day we live in now? What is He doing while He is
resting?
Psalm 148:
"Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from
the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels:
praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him,
all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters
that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he
commanded, and they were created." (And etc.)
Psalm 148 - the universe itself
praises God so study of it could never be neutral!
No argument from me. All creation should praise His holy
name. Agreed. Now, what does that have to do with
mutual-shared common ancestry for all of God's creatures - the heart of
evolutionary doctrine?
(I have included more of the chapter to give perspective)
Isaiah 24:1-5: Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and
maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the
inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so
with the priest; as with the
servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as
with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the
borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to
him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for
the LORD hath spoken this word. 4 The earth mourneth and fadeth
away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the
earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the
inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the
ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isaiah 24:4 - even nature is
in pain because of sin, that pain itself could be read in science as a
distorted history which could deceive the neutral
scientist.
Read the entire section. The word "earth" is the same as
"land" in Hebrew. The land is defiled because they have
transgressed the laws, etc. What happens when we create waste
dumps, or pollute the oceans, or denude the forests, or strip mine, or
pour soot in the atmosphere? Same thing. Now, as I remember,
your original complaint had to do with evolution, did it not?
So when a Christian interprets what
he sees in nature be scripture he is imposes scripture on
nature.
Christians should start with learning how to interpret
Scripture.
But when the scientist does
the exact same thing, imposing his scientific theories on nature, then it
is just making logical conclusions. that is quite hypocritical for
an objectively neutral discipline.
No, scientists derive their theories based upon their observations of
nature. They don't impose theories on nature.
So
you admit, man has authority over GOd and man's view can be imposed on
nature, while God's revelation cannot!
Again, you have the Book. Give us chapter and verse. How did
God cause mammals to evolve from
reptiles?
He didn't. He created them as
his word says.
Okay, I'll bite, how did He create them? What was the
process? If we had a movie camera, what would we see?
To claim the bible must explain
atheistic science which seeks to remove God from the equation and be
"neutral" about God is the problem of your
science.
Science doesn't seek anything of the kind. Science tries to
explain. Can scientists go overboard? Yes. But you are
trying to indict a means of knowing that has no presuppositions by
imposing your own presuppositions based upon how you interpret Scripture
which doesn't look all that good to me.
You claim science can be neutral
when nothing sinful man does can ever be neutral.
Including interpreting Scripture.
Scripture cannot explain
atheistic science because atheistic science tells too many lies about the
universe to support its dismissal of God from the equation.
I don't know any good "lies" about the universe. Perhaps
you do?
Your myth of neutrality acts in
exactly the same way, removing God from what he has created, sustains,
and upholds as if that were even possible.
You're confusing cause with process. No one on this list
(that I know of) denies God as the First Cause. Secondary causes
may not require God's direct involvement. God created all things
including viruses. Viruses cause disease. God doesn't cause
disease.
God created the universe which resulted in planet Earth. The earth
has oceans and an ocean floor. Recently the floor shifted and a
tsunami caused the deaths of over 155,000 people. Your god of
continual causation killed those people. My God who allows
secondary causes in nature was not responsible. Simple as
that.
Dick Fischer -
Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org
Received on Thu Jan 20 01:11:51 2005