RE: tsunami impact on animals

On a physical level I would agree. All suffer. But spiritually is another
thing. A new born baby will suffer physically if killed, but its spirit
will know of no such thing. It will enter into the kingdom of heaven were
there is no death or suffering. As you said, a definition is a must. But
so too is the type being described.

Don P
  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Charles Carrigan
  Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:21 AM
  To: drsyme@cablespeed.com; asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: Re: tsunami impact on animals

  Jack,

  Once again, I see no reason that leads me to believe that "good" =
"perfect". As far as my standards, I'm simply looking at the definitions of
those two words and seeing that they are not the same. By insisting that
Genesis says "and God saw all that he created, and it was perfect", I think
you're reading something into the text that isn't there.

  I find the idea that animals don't suffer to be utterly impossible to
accept. I don't think I'll ever understand how an animal could have its
flesh torn from it's body while it's still alive and we refuse to call that
suffering. I'm really curious as to your definition of the word suffering.

  Best,
  Charles

>>> "jack syme" <drsyme@cablespeed.com> 1/11/2005 6:04:34 AM >>>

  I guess there are those on the list who want to see the creation, created
by an omipotent being who declared it "good" as being somewhat less than
perfect. I guess their standards are higher than God's. ;)

  And I happen to agree with your 'fine tuning' argument, that Creation is
perfect, it seems like it could be no other way. And that includes
earthquakes, volcanoes, diseases,etc. But of course some of that is just
speculation.

  However, even if all of these things are part of a perfect creation, there
still is a problem of human suffering that ocurrs as a result of these
morally neutral acts of nature, and why would an omnipotent, omniscient God,
who is Good (in the moral sense) allow it to ocurr.

  There are some assumptions in my comments that others may not accept and
might be worth discussing somewhat. I am assuming that death from natural
causes, including predation, of sub-human creation is not evil. I am also
assuming that animals cannot suffer, because I would consider suffering,
even of animals evil. Clearly, there was death to sub-human creation before
the fall of man. Of course this is speculation, but if man had not fallen,
wouldnt it have been such that these natural events would have ocurred
without causing death or suffering to man? If we still had a relationship
with God, would we be better stewards of the Earth, and refrain from
building our cities on coastlines, and would be aware of such destructive
things before they happened?
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Don Perrett
    To: 'Charles Carrigan'
    Cc: ASA Discussions (E-mail)
    Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:26 AM
    Subject: RE: tsunami impact on animals

    Charles,
    It depends on what one considers perfect. I see it as perfect as it is.
Do you believe that the world would be what it is if the force of gravity
were different? If even one of the natural laws were different, then so
would the entire universe. We're not talking a perfect circle or square,
like dark ages. We're talking about each an every chaotic element working
in "perfect" harmony with each other to create a set of conditions "perfect"
for our survival.

    Don P
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Charles Carrigan [mailto:CCarriga@olivet.edu]
      Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:36
      To: donperrett@genesisproclaimed.org
      Subject: RE: tsunami impact on animals

      Don,

      What reason is there to believe that the creation was created perfect,
and beyond that it still is?

      Regards,
      Charles

      <><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><
      Charles W. Carrigan
      Olivet Nazarene University
      Dept. of Geology
      One University Ave.
      Bourbonnais, IL 60914
      PH: (815) 939-5346
      FX: (815) 939-5071

>>> "Don Perrett" <donperrett@genesisproclaimed.org> 1/8/2005 10:49:50
PM >>>
      If one believes that the universe was created perfect, and that it
still is (regardless of man's fall), then one must also submit that all
natural acts regardless of the level of destruction and death are good from
God's perspective.

      Don P
Received on Thu Jan 13 01:44:05 2005