[Fwd: Once you know it's false]

Hi ASA,

Perhaps some of these are the ones that Jim has in mind

It would be my fault by using a reply instead of an "reply all"

Jim will certainly get back to where he "belongs" in due time by the
Lord -- but not by any of the pompous egotists from ASA that post
against him.

IMHO ===> Jim's views are much more important than political
conservative vs liberal ideas as promoted by ASAers. Pretending for them
to be ""Christian only views". There is a lot of hogwash and a poor
Christian testimony on this list serve IMHO.

If you disagree, you can show me why this is not true - or ignore this
post.

Walt

===================================
Walt Hicks <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>

In any consistent theory, there must
exist true but not provable statements.
(Godel's Theorem)

You can only find the truth with logic
If you have already found the truth
without it. (G.K. Chesterton)
===================================

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From: "Jim Eisele" <jeisele@starpower.net>
To: "wallyshoes" <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Once you know it's false
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:52:54 -0500
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Walt, you wrote

>> That being said, is it possible to remain an evangelical once you have
>> been confronted with the other side of the story?
>>
>> One need look no further than the mythology of Adam and Eve. Believable
>> until you hear the other side of the story.
>
>Do you know of Christians who have not "heard" what you call the "other
>side"? Pretty much everyone I know has heard it.

Yes, I firmly believe that believing Adam and Eve are real people is a
function of ignorance. This ignorance is often protected by intolerance.
If Christians showed understanding of the counter-argument(that Adam and
Eve were guilty of nothing more than ignorance) I would give them credit
for knowledge. At least I understand the Christian point of view (Adam
and Eve were guilty of awful moral failure).

Jim

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I had meant to post to ASA also, but this is O.K. I guess.

Jim Eisele wrote:

> Walt, you wrote
>
> >> That being said, is it possible to remain an evangelical once you have
> >> been confronted with the other side of the story?
> >>
> >> One need look no further than the mythology of Adam and Eve. Believable
> >> until you hear the other side of the story.
> >
> >Do you know of Christians who have not "heard" what you call the "other
> >side"? Pretty much everyone I know has heard it.
>
> Yes, I firmly believe that believing Adam and Eve are real people is a
> function of ignorance.

Have you ever read the articles by Fisher?

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/PSCF12-93Fisher.html#Part%201
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/PSCF3-94Fisher.html#Part%202

Would you suggest that Fisher is ignorant of facts?

> This ignorance is often protected by intolerance.
> If Christians showed understanding of the counter-argument(that Adam and
> Eve were guilty of nothing more than ignorance) I would give them credit
> for knowledge. At least I understand the Christian point of view (Adam
> and Eve were guilty of awful moral failure).

That as I see it, is why it is futile to expect an atheist to ever understand
what the Bible says. The Bible attempts to communicate at a minimum to the
Theist level of understanding. Adam and Eve (allegory or not) were clearly
guilty of disobeying God.

They knew the instructions.

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the
garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
for when you eat of it you will surely die."

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of
the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

They intentionally disobeyed.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to
the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She
also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

They even ran and hid from God.

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in
the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the
trees of the garden."

And you say that Adam and Eve were only guilty of "ignorance"?. Come on, Jim!

I have heard this argument before. It is silly nonsense and indicates a
rewriting of what the the Bible says.

Was that your only point?

Walt

--
===================================
Walt Hicks <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>
In any consistent theory, there must
exist true but not provable statements.
(Godel's Theorem)
You can only find the truth with logic
If you have already found the truth
without it. (G.K. Chesterton)
===================================

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Jim Eisele wrote:

> It has been a while since I have written this list. I remain an atheist,
> more strongly than before.

Although it a manifestly incorrect view, as a former atheist, I believe that
it is a good phase of life to go through.

>
>
> If people have an emotional need to be Christian I am willing to leave
> them alone.

Being a committed Christian is indeed intellectually and emotionally
satisfying. As to "need", many would say that it the atheist that is reacting
to an emotional need.

>
>
> I continue to wonder if and when this list will become closed to
> non-Christians.

Hopefully, never

>
>
> That being said, is it possible to remain an evangelical once you have
> been confronted with the other side of the story?
>
> One need look no further than the mythology of Adam and Eve. Believable
> until you hear the other side of the story.

Do you know of Christians who have not "heard" what you call the "other
side"? Pretty much everyone I know has heard it.

>
>
> My current perception of evangelicals is that they are ignorant, and
> sometimes (hate to say it) intolerant.

You would fit well here in Massachusetts. The elite here look upon others as
ignorant and intolerant and that they are superior to them. It has nothing to
do with with religion; it is just pompous, intellectual arrogance.

>
>
> It has amazed me, in my time on the internet, to see just how easy
> it is to debunk the Adam and Eve story. Across the board, the standard
> Christian response is to retreat into silence. Christian ideas shrink
> from enlightened competition.
>
> Unfortunately, evangelicals tip the balance of political power.
>
> Does anyone on this list still believe Adam and Eve were real people?
> Are you willing to discuss this?

>From my very first reading of genesis, I considered the story of Adam and
Eve to be a description of the Creator's *spiritual* relationship with
mankind and in conflict with Genesis 1. I suspect that you must have had an
unpleasant experience with a Church that made you bitter and sour.

Walt
-
===================================
Walt Hicks <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>

In any consistent theory, there must
exist true but not provable statements.
(Godel's Theorem)

You can only find the truth with logic
If you have already found the truth
without it. (G.K. Chesterton)
===================================
Received on Tue Nov 9 00:34:34 2004