Re: Roster of shame?

From: John W Burgeson (jwburgeson@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 27 2003 - 01:41:00 EST

  • Next message: John W Burgeson: "Re: Wells and Molecular Phylogenies"

    Friend Vernon, with whom I expect to spend millennia in the next life
    unpacking all this stuff, wrote:

    "Yes, Burgy, I can well understand your frustration with these infidels
    and
    sense your leaning toward a gulag-like solution to the problem, as you
    see
    it. >>

    (1) I did not suggest -- even for a minute -- that they were, in any
    sense of the word, "infidels."
    (2) The term "gulag-like" suggests I want to shut them up. I am sorry to
    give that impression; I wish to expose their silly ideas publicly as the
    nonsense I believe it is.

    "But I suggest the _real_ problem lies elsewhere: on your own doorstep,
    in fact. For it is clear to me that like many on this list you are
    content
    to base your beliefs on a selected _subset_ of the available data. As a
    result, your interpretation of what you do accept is inevitably skewed,
    and
    valueless."

    I understand your charge. I reject it. Anyone who takes the trouble to
    read my comments on Christianity on my web site knows that my claim is to
    follow the truth as best I can, and in doing so to consider every scrap
    of possible evidence. Now I will cheerfully admit to doing less than a
    perfect job in this -- I am not perfect. But I reject utterly the
    inference above that I am "content to base my beliefs on a selected
    subset of the available evidence." That is emphatically not true. If my
    interpretations are "skewed," (I think they are not), it is because of my
    own imperfections or because there is evidence I have not yet
    encountered.

    I posted some long notes on the YEC seminar by Joe Sebeny here in Durango
    recently. Look at them (they are on my website, page 2, section 4). Tell
    me the EVIDENCE that would lead a rational person to reject anything I've
    said there.

    "For example, at the most fundamental level you blatantly ignore the
    biblical
    strictures concerning man (surely confirmed by one's knowledge of oneself
    and of the world) and assume that the Christian is inevitably a _neutral_
    observer and commentator in respect of ultimate origins. Again, you
    overlook
    Paul's clear warning to believers in respect of _the wiles of Satan_
    (Eph.6:11-17) - ignoring the implications of this passage, which are
    profound indeed, for they reach into every corner of our lives. Finally,
    there are the Bible-based phenomena which Richard and I have brought to
    your
    attention over the past months and years - still largely unacknowledged,
    and
    still awaiting detailed assessment by those committed to following truth,
    no
    matter where it may lead."

    I wondered when you were going to get around to your pet thesis. I do not
    see where that thesis has any particular relationship to the YEC
    question.

    "Burgy, it appears that you have yet to understand that some Christians
    do
    see the _bigger picture_ (as I have outlined it above) and conclude that
    where God's revelation speaks specifically of a particular matter then
    nothing more can, or should, be said. "

    Bigger picture? Well, perhaps. A different picture, to be sure. My
    admiration for one YEC (Gosse) is based on the fact that he did not try
    to deny the clear evidences of science, but indeed follow your words
    above almost exactly. And if one clings to a YEC position SOLELY ON
    SCRIPTURE, and does not cite "scientific reasons" for that belief,
    content to say "I don't know" then I have respect for him and I do not
    consider his YEC position nonsense (wrong, of course, but that's quite
    another matter).

    "Accordingly, your list of names is
    hardly a _roster of shame_. Rather, it reveals that many respectable
    academics now heed the scriptural warnings against unbelief, and realize
    that in respect of extrabiblical reconstructions of earth history, the
    pronouncements of science can carry little real authority."

    If they did not support ICR as they do, I would not include them on the
    roster. Sorry I did not include the fact that all on the roster are on
    the ICR Technical Advisory Staff" and have their names included on the
    ACTS & FACTS cover letter. Since ICR appeals to "science," and does so in
    an incompetent and unprofessional manner, I must imput ICR's sins to them
    as well.

    "Some advice: rather than 'fear for our civilization', why not follow
    Glen's
    sage advice: in your deliberations, ensure that you accomodate _all_ the
    data that bears upon the matter of origins. To base your thesis on
    anything
    less clearly denigrates the scientific traditions we revere."

    It's Glenn, not Glen. And, as I have said before, I do my best to do just
    the above. I am in full agreement, therefore, with your closing sentence.

    Burgy

    www.burgy.50megs.com

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