Hi Bill
Apologies for a slow response.
Hoping not to rehash old ground....
Bill Payne wrote:
> On Thu, 24 May 2001 08:42:48 +1000 Jonathan Clarke
> <jdac@alphalink.com.au> writes:
>
> > A recent example (April 9) was Paul Nelson's refusal to publicly answer
> Loren
> > Haarsma's question "Are carbon atoms intelligently designed?"
>
> I can't imagine why Paul would be reluctant to answer that one. In my
> mind carbon atoms are absolutely designed, along with every other
> particle and force in the universe. Why did Loren even ask that question
> in the first place, and what's wrong with design?
I would like to know why he didn't answer it too. I agree with you,
everything in the universe is intelligently designed. I can't speak for
Loren, but the reason I would ask that question (and have in somewhat
different forms to other people) is that my suspicion is that the ID
community, as it presently consists, insists that living things are a
different case from non-living. However, it is difficult to get a straight
answer (in fact I never have) on this from them.
>
>
> > In many ways the supernatural-natural split is completely unhelpful for
> the reasons you state. What matters is that God is always working in the
> world, whether the results are explicable to us or not. A miracle is not
> necessarily something inexplicable to present science, or even something
> fundamentally inexplicable (although they may be both), it is an event that
> has
> significance in God's salvation history.
>
> I think our pastor recently made a distinction here between miracles and
> what we might call fortuitous events. I think he said something like the
> latter is providential, not miraculous.
Yes, I have heard this distinction also. I don't know whether it is useful.
If we can explain a major miracle, like the parting of the Red Sea, as a rare
event, unless we have a view of God's action that encompasses such things,
when we have explained away a miracle. It is back to God of the gaps, or can
be. I use the example of the Red Sea deliberately, as meteorological
modeling indicates indicates that it is possible, though a very rare, event.
I think it it may be better to minimise the distinction between miracle and
providence and emphasise the are both of God. Similarly, although God's
creative and sustaining works are conceptually distinct, in practice they are
part and parcel of the same thing
>
>
> > Also people use "supernatural" with respect not
> > just to God, but also the paranormal and demonic, which muddies the
> waters.
>
> Why? Demonic activity is real in today's world, e.g. dowsing for water
> or underground utility lines. I would consider dowsing supernatural but
> not miraculous.
I try and keep and open mind on dowsing, both scientifically and
theologically :-) (despite strong tendencies to say it is a crock of
croprolites). Interestingly, it was not uncommonly practiced by the very
conservative and Godly elders of the Christian Brethren churches in NW
Tasmania. But this moves us into questions of the nature paranormal and
whether they are of the same stuff as the "miraculous" and "supernatural". I
am not sure I want to explore that (at this stage).
The distinction between miraculous and supernatural you use is interesting.
It it because a miracle must be a sign pointing to God and a wonder,
exciting awe and worship?
>
> >
> > However, I think there is a need for a word to describe specific
> actions by God in the world contrary to creaturely processes.
>
> What's wrong with miracles?
>
In itself nothing. It is a good word. However "miracle" has been very
muddied and confused, thanks to the malign influence of Hume and others, with
"supernatural", "paranormal", and "unexplained". I am wondering if there may
not be an alternative term or series of terms we can use, than might clarify
things rather than add to the mud. For myself, when preaching on the
gospels, for example, I would use the word miracle. However, if preaching
specifically on miracles I would try and emphasise the nature of miracle as
sign and wonder, not necessarily something inexplicable. However, seeing I
have recently moved to a church that does not encourage lay preaching, I am
not likely to do much of this for the foreseeable future.
GB
Jon
>
> Bill
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri May 25 2001 - 18:41:50 EDT