>> DNAunion: All life requires that it actively maintain itself far above
thermodynamic equilibrium. For an acorn to grow into an oak, it must fight
against, and "overcome", entropic tendencies at every moment along the way.
This example does not contradict my statements.
>>FMAJ: Exactly. This far for equilibrium thermodynamics is exactly what
drives evolution and creation of completity. So what does this show?
DNAunion: It shows that there *is* something that opposes matter's being
organized in complex ways, which must be continually fought: when it is
battled, it *can* be "overcome".
How many times do I have to explain this. I am *not* stating that increases
in order or complexity *cannot* occur, just that in order for them to occur,
that entropy must be *overcome*. Entropy *is* something that opposes
matter's being arranged in organized and complex ways.
Let me try an analogy. Is there something that opposes matter's rising from
the Earth's surface instead of falling towards it? Yes, gravity. Does that
mean that matter cannot rise from the Earth's surface? No. Look at the
eruptions of volcanoes and geysers, or helium-filled or hydrogen-filled
"blimps", or airplanes, or the projectiles from cannons, or a the space
shuttle, or "water" when it evaporates. But it would still be wrong to say
that matter has *nothing* against rising from the Earth's surface.
Is there something that opposes matter's moving away from other matter? Yes,
gravity. But does that mean that one piece of matter cannot move away from
another piece of matter? No. The electrostatic charge you get from rubbing
a comb through your hair can overcome the gravitational tug of the Earth on a
small piece of paper. Also, most of the galaxies in the universe are
spreading out further and further from each other as universal expansion
continues. But it would still be wrong to say that matter has *nothing*
against moving away from other matter.
[...]
>>>DNAunion: Hurricanes are not organized, just ordered. Being organized is a
higher state than being ordered, as organization implies multiple parts
operating together as a whole. A pile of leafs is ordered, but not organized.
A car's engine (or a cell) is both ordered and organized.
>>>FMAJ: Where in the SLOT is it concluded that organization is a relevant
term?
DNAunion: The 2nd law? Nowhere. But your original claim used the word
*organized* so it is part of the discussion.
[...]
>>>FMAJ: So show how specified complexity cannot be formed by evolutionary
pathways?
>>>DNAunion: I already gave a general example: the latest issue of "Origins
of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere".
>>>DNAunion: No response here by David Bowman?
>>>FMAJ: As Wesley has shown evolutionary algorithms can generate specified
complexity that cannot be distinguished from what Dembski seems to refer to
as actual specified complexity. So where is the evidence that evolutionary
pathways cannot generate exactly this specificity?
DNAunion: I already explained my example of the latest issue of "Origins of
Life and Evolution of the Biosphere". It is an example of specified
complexity that cannot be produced in the real world by undirected,
purely-natural processes. If you would care to take a stab at showing
otherwise, be my guest.
FMAJ: […]
"ev : Evolution of Biological Information by Tom Schneider, Nucleic Acids
Research, 28(14): 2794-2799, 2000. Not directly commenting upon Dembski, but
it does directly contradict Dembski's claims concerning information increase
via evolutionary computation. "
DNAunion: I already addressed this work at this site. It does not show that
IC can be produced (which was the author's claim, not yours) nor that CSI as
defined by Dembski (500 bits of information) could be.
[…]
>>>DNAunion: Now David. I have provided several biological examples that
clearly show that there *is* something that opposes matter's becoming
organized in complex ways in relation to biology. Proteins decomposing
spontaneously; amino acids not polymerizing spontaneously; monosaccharides
not linking spontaneously;
>>>FMAJ: There are similarly plenty of examples where spontaneous reactions
occur in either direction.
DNAunion: Irrelevant. My point is that there *is* something that opposes
matter's being organized in complex ways. I have demonstrated that. It does
not matter if this something can be overcome, it still exists.
>>>FMAJ: But what you have to show is what happens at far equilibrium. Here
interesting things happen: complexity increases.
DNAunion: Which is irrelevant to my point, and which I already "conceded",
several times.
>>>FMAJ: That you have found instances in which there is an opposite trend
is hardly surprising, life is full of generation and decay. Why focus only on
the latter one?
DNAunion: Because you claimed *it* didn't exist, that there is *nothing*
that opposes matter's being arranged in organized and complex ways. And I
have "conceded" that "generation" can occur, if entropy is "overcome", which
is NOT impossible and does in fact occur.
[...]
>>>DNAunion: If so, then you would still be agreeing that there is
something that opposes matters
being organized in complex ways, just that that something is not
*thermodynamic entropy*. Or have I overlooked a possibility?
>>>FMAJ: There are instances where complexity increases are opposed just
like there are instances that the opposite happens. Since evolution takes
place at far equilibrium you should focus on such processes.
DNAunion: I am not directly addressing evolution, and in fact have stated
that entropy does not prevent evolution, and that the overcoming of entropy
can allow for evolution to occur. Would my "opponents" please stick to my
*actual* statements, instead of what they *wish* I had stated.
>>>FMAJ: "The formation and evolution of patterns is a typical manifestation
of selforganization processes, arising in far from equilibrium complex
systems. Besides its relevance in the study of such systems at a basic level,
the analysis of selforganization phenomena is also relevant in several
applications such as, physicochemical processes, information transmission and
biological systems. The project aims to the study of development and
behaviour of patterns in reaction-diffusion systems. "
DNAunion: Key words, "…far from equilibrium…". That means that entropy
(that *something* that opposes matter's being arranged in organized and
complex ways) is continually being battled against.
[…]
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