Re: ID *does* require a designer! (but it does not need to identify who or what he/it is)

From: Richard Wein (rwein@lineone.net)
Date: Fri Oct 13 2000 - 11:29:42 EDT

  • Next message: DNAunion@aol.com: "Re: ID *does* require a designer! (but it does not need to identify who or what he/it is)"

    From: Stephen E. Jones <sejones@iinet.net.au>

    >Reflectorites
    >
    >On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:13:43 +0100, Richard Wein wrote:
    >
    >[...]
    >
    >>SJ>For the umpteenth time I do not claim that "ID does not *require* a
    >>>designer". I claim that ID does not need to specify who (or what) exactly
    >>>the designer(s) is.
    >
    >RW>I distinctly remember seeing you make such a claim,
    >
    >I deny that I have ever claim that ID does not require a designer. If I
    >did, does not Richard think I would have been hammered to death on
    >this by Chris, Susan, FJ/Pim, Wesley, et al? It would be an absurd claim
    >for an IDer to make and in fact would be exactly the same as what
    >Darwinism claims.
    >
    >If Richard still maintains that he "distinctly remember seeing" me
    >"make such a claim" then he is obligated to search his emails and
    >produce the claim.

    I said I would "assume it was simply a misunderstanding." Since I made no
    assertion as to whose fault the misunderstanding was, I thought Stephen
    might be content to let the matter drop. No such luck. So I have now
    searched for and found the relevant post, which shows clearly that the fault
    was Stephen's, though I suspect that Stephen, with his usual absence of
    logical thought, will be unable to see this...

    From: Stephen E. Jones <sejones@iinet.net.au>
    Date: 18 August 2000 00:07
    Subject: Re: ID unfalsifiable? (was Designed Designers?)

    [start extract]
    >RW>The hypothesis with which we're concerned here, the "ID hypothesis", is
    the
    >>assertion that "an intelligent designer was involved in the origin of
    life"
    >>(or something like that).
    >
    >Maybe Richard should take a bit more time to find out first what exactly it
    >is he is claiming to refute. As I have stated a number of times recently,
    the
    >"ID hypothesis" is not about "an intelligent designer" but about
    intelligent
    >*design*.
    [end extract]
    (A complete copy of the post is provided as an attachment.)

    So Stephen did not state "ID does not require a designer" in so many words.
    But that's the only logical way to interpret his reply. Of course, given
    Stephen's past record, I'm now quite willing to accept that he didn't really
    mean what he was saying, and that this was just another example of the
    difficulty he has with thinking logically.

    >My position *all along* has been that ID requires a designer (of some
    >sort) but that ID does not need to *identify* who the designer was.
    >
    >This was covered by Behe in Darwin's Black Box way back in 1996,
    >and that was what all the threads about an alien designer that Chris and
    >Pim/FJ made so much of.
    >
    >So I must say I am *astonished* that Richard claims to be unaware of
    >my position on this.
    >
    >The nearest that I can think of me saying that "ID does not require a
    >designer" is my speculation that maybe Fred Hoyle's claim that the
    >universe is somehow intelligent would be accepted within ID. Hoyle
    >rejects Darwinism so he is not talking about unintelligent natural
    >processes. His position seems to be a kind of Idealism where a Mind is
    >behind it all. IMHO such a position *might* be acceptable within ID,
    >because it is postulating an intelligent designing agent, apart from
    >unintelligent natural processes.
    >
    >FJ/Pim might claim that this is the same as his `intelligent natural
    >processes' (whatever they are). If so, then again it *might* be
    >acceptable within ID if his `intelligent natural processes' were not just
    >Darwinism's *un*-intelligent natural processes in drag. However, I
    >presume that FJ/Pim has not got the slightest interest in claiming there
    >really are `intelligent natural processes' but it was just another example
    >of his `playing the devil's advocate', i.e. advocating positions he doesn't
    >really believe just for the sake of argument.
    >
    >RW>but I will assume it was simply a misunderstanding.
    >
    >As I have said before, a major part of Richard's "misunderstanding" of
    >what his creationist/ID opponent is saying is that he too easily assumes
    >it must be "irrational" and "nonsense" and so he tends to read into their
    >posts what he wants them to say.

    No, I did not *want* you to say it. I would dearly love to have clear and
    unambiguous statements of the ID arguments. It would make them much easier
    to criticise.

    Nevertheless, Stephen has drawn attention to a real problem. Usually, if
    someone says something that seems absurd, one tends to assume that it's a
    misunderstanding and asks for clarification. In the case of
    creationists/IDers, however, so much of what they say is absurd that, when
    they accidentally say something absurd, one is liable to assume that they
    really mean it.

    >RW>This is the first time I've seen you deny it.
    >
    >I cannott remember anyone put it as bluntly as Richard did. I tend to
    >respond to most things so it is highly unlikely that someone would have
    >claim that I said that `ID does not require a designer' and I did not deny
    >it.
    >
    >If Richard (or anyone) can show that this claim has been made about
    >me and I did not deny it, I would be very interested.

    My search turned up 3 cases...

    From: Richard Wein <rwein@lineone.net>
    Date: 02 September 2000 10:45
    Subject: Re: The Idea of Design
    [...]
    >a conscious being. Although Stephen claims that ID does not require a
    >designer, the major ID proponents make no such absurd claim, as far as I
    >know.

    From: Richard Wein <rwein@lineone.net>
    Date: 01 October 2000 22:48
    Subject: Re: Behe and design inference: What does it mean?
    [...]
    >Stephen Jones even claims that ID does not necessarily entail a designer.
    >But, if it doesn't entail a designer, what's the point of it? What *does*
    it
    >entail?

    From: Richard Wein <rwein@lineone.net>
    Date: 04 October 2000 10:02
    Subject: Re: Reply to CCogan: Waste and computer evolution
    [...]
    >Stephen Jones, our resident ID proponent, has even claimed that ID does not
    >require a designer!

    Of course, there's no reason why you should read all my posts (I don't read
    all of yours).

    Richard Wein (Tich)
    --------------------------------
    "Do the calculation. Take the numbers seriously. See if the underlying
    probabilities really are small enough to yield design."
      -- W. A. Dembski, who has never presented any calculation to back up his
    claim to have detected Intelligent Design in life.


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