Re: Neanderthal DNA shows strong differences from modern humans, etc

From: Stephen E. Jones (sejones@iinet.net.au)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2000 - 07:02:44 EDT

  • Next message: Terry M. Gray: "Re: Gene duplication and design [ was Re: Dennett's bad word ...]"

    Reflectorites

    Below are web articles for the period 19 - 29 March, with my comments in
    square brackets.

    Steve

    ========================================================
    http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/29/neanderthal.dna.ap/index.html CNN
    ... March 29, 2000 Neanderthal DNA shows strong differences from
    modern humans March 29, 2000 ... Researchers say DNA extracted from
    a 29,000-year- old bone has cast doubt on the theory that modern
    humans evolved in part from squat, heavy-browed Neanderthals. ... While
    the two Neanderthal samples turned out to be just 3.5 percent different
    from one another, they were roughly 7 percent different from DNA in
    modern humans. Scientists consider that to be a substantial gap. "It all
    points away from the Neanderthal," ... The researchers challenge the
    theory that modern humans evolved at least partly from Neanderthals,
    which some believe mated in large numbers with modern Europeans
    before disappearing 25,000 years ago. If that had happened... today's
    Europeans would show stronger genetic similarities to Neanderthals than
    other humans do. Yet the latest DNA analysis shows Neanderthal DNA to
    be no closer to Europeans than to other modern humans. ... the research
    appears to support the theory that Neanderthals were an evolutionary
    dead end. ... The study does support an opposing theory known as "out-
    of- Africa," .... This theory says modern humans descended from the true
    Homo sapiens, who originated in Africa and came to replace other early
    humans worldwide without great mixing. ... However, some experts
    question the ... conclusions ... "Maybe 40,000 years ago, everybody's
    mitochondrial DNA is very different from humans of today," said Fred H.
    Smith. ... Also: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000328/sc/neanderthal_study_1.html
    ... March 28 ... Study: Humans Not Descended From Neanderthals ...
    LONDON (Reuters) - Modern humans are not descended from
    Neanderthals but co-existed with them about 40,000 years ago... The fact
    that these two Neanderthals are closely related and not related to modern
    humans implies that they don't have the diversity to encompass a modern
    human gene pool" .... ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_694000/694467.stm
    ...29 March, 2000 ... The new work, published in the journal Nature,
    contradicts recent evidence from ancient remains of a child found in
    Portugal, which appeared to combine Neanderthal and human features.
    Those researchers concluded that some interbreeding must have taken
    place. ... The bones from the Neanderthal infant were very well preserved
    and the child must have been among the last of the Neanderthals ... &
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/neanderthal000328.html
    ABCNEWS ... there are no examples of humans having Neanderthal-
    type DNA."... Loring Brace ... a proponent of the idea that people
    descended from Neanderthals - ... argues that features of skulls show a
    steady progression from Neanderthal to human - says the DNA evidence
    does not sway him. Different patterns of movement may have caused
    mitochondrial DNA to diverge more quickly in the past ... Erik Trinkaus ...
    says the DNA evidence does not disprove his assertion that the 25,000-
    year- old skeleton of a child unearthed in Portugal is the descendent of a
    human- Neanderthal hybrid. ... just shows interbreeding was not common.
    .... Goodwin also says his finding isn't the final word. Perhaps
    Neanderthals and humans mated and produced sterile offspring, similar
    to mules, the crossbreed of horses and donkeys. "It's very hard to prove
    any negative," Goodwin says. "I wouldn't claim this to be conclusive." ...
    [While Goodwin is being admirably objective, the fact is that the
    cumulative evidence is becoming overwhelming that Neandertals and
    modern humans did not interbreed and therefore were separate species.
    Arguments from skeletal similarities are notoriously subjective. One would
    expect a wide, overlapping range of skeletal similarities between closely
    related species, who share a very high proportion of genes in common.]

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000329/sc/space_planets_1.html
    Yahoo! ... March 29 ... Astronomers Find Saturn- Size Planets in Other
    Systems ... SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Astronomers searching the
    skies for distant planets have detected two Saturn-sized worlds orbiting
    distant suns, the smallest planets found thus far outside our solar system.
    The discovery boosted the likelihood that even smaller planets -- perhaps
    the size of Earth -- exist elsewhere in the universe..."It indicates that there
    are probably a lot of smaller planets out there," .... "It will go all the way
    down to planets the size of the Earth or the moon. That's what this is
    telling us." ... We still don't have the capability of detecting Earth-like
    planets, which would be equivalent to seeing pebbles on the beach." ...
    One of the new planets, which weighed in at about 80 percent of the mass
    of Saturn, was found orbiting 3.8 million miles (six million km) from the
    star HD46375, ... The second, about 70 percent the mass of Saturn, was
    found orbiting 32.5 million miles (52 million km) around the star 79
    Ceti...in order to find possible Earth- like worlds, the team will need a
    whole new order of magnification, ...See also:
    http://cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/29/newplanets.ap/index.html ... Both
    planets are close to their stars, which means they have short orbits. The
    HD46375 planet circles its star in just three days, while the 79 Ceti planet
    takes 75 days to orbit. Both are thought to be gas planets, like Saturn and
    Jupiter. Both are so close to their stars that they would reach
    temperatures of more than 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit, far too hot to
    sustain ordinary forms of life, the researchers say. [There isn't much joy in
    this for exobiologists. The planets found are probably gas giants and are
    too close to their Sun to be life-supporting. Until they actually find Earth-
    like planets they won't know for sure how rare they are.]

    http://cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/27/dark.matter.ap/index.html CNN ...
    Scientists beginning to shed light on dark matter March 27, 2000 ...(AP) --
    The invisible and so far unidentified dark matter that accounts for 90
    percent of the universe could soon be brought to light as scientists
    develop sensitive detectors capable of sniffing out tiny particles predicted
    by theory but not yet proven to exist. ... But if the weakly interacting
    massive particles -- WIMPs -- are detected, the finding could solve
    fundamental mysteries of the universe: how it formed after the Big Bang,
    the nature of its structure and whether it will all end in a Big Crunch. ...
    Astronomers have known for 70 years that visible matter is only a small
    part of the universe. Something that exerts a strong gravitational tug, for
    instance, causes the outer stars of a spiral galaxy to revolve faster than
    they should, given what is visible. .... Weighty but ghostly WIMPs are
    currently the prime suspects. ... 10 trillion WIMPs may be zipping through
    every 2 pounds of matter here on Earth every second. .. If found, the
    weight of WIMPs -- estimated to be 50 times heavier than a proton --
    would help physicists determine the mass of the universe, a figure that
    could mean the difference between a cosmos that expands forever or
    collapses on itself. But confirmation also would validate a popular and
    elegant theory that predicts a yet- to-be-found partner for every known
    particle. ...because WIMPs are not the ordinary particles that make up
    people, planets and stars, it would make everything that is known today a
    very small minority member of the cosmos. "What's fascinating, if we're
    right, is that most of the stuff of the universe is other than the protons and
    neutrons that we're used to," .... "The implication is that most of the
    universe is something else. This is the ultimate Copernican revolution." ...
    [AFAIK there is now no possibility that the universe will end in a Big
    Crunch - it would require many times the observed force of gravity to do
    that and detecting WIMPs won't change that. And since they already
    know that something like WIMPS must exist, finally identifying them is
    hardly going to be a "Copernican revolution".]

    http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/27/water.award/index.html CNN ...
    Chemist's work on understanding water nets national award ... March 27,
    2000 ... SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Water is where 99 percent of all
    chemistry on Earth takes place.... But because water is so familiar, its
    highly unusual and extreme properties are easily overlooked. .... Saykally,
    52, and his associates are working to model water on a computer -- in
    essence, recreating water in virtual space to track and predict the
    behavior and influences of the compound known as H2O. "The essential
    question is, what makes water wet?" he said. "Why does it have such
    extremely high melting and boiling points compared with similar
    compounds? Why is it less dense when it becomes solid than when it is
    liquid? And its solvent properties are unique. That's just the beginning."
    The fundamental nature of water occurs because of what Saykally calls
    "strong tetrahedral hydrogen bonding." That means the two hydrogen
    atoms of one molecule are attracted to the oxygen atom of another.
    Further complicating this property of water, a single water molecule tends
    to interact not just with its neighbors but with others, tens -- even
    hundreds - - of molecules away. ...[The unique properties of water is a
    powerful argument for design. It is just another one of those `cosmic
    coincidences', without which life as we know it would be impossible. My
    atheist Biology lecturer a month ago sounded like Michael Denton
    rhapsodising on about the properties of water. The other day she had to
    admonish herself by saying something like: "I shouldn't say that-it sounds
    like it was designed!]

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000113078204876&rtmo=02brGesq&atmo=lllllljx&pg=/et/00/3/23ecnlab23.html
    Electronic Telegraph 23.03.00 Three in 10 think talking robots are human
    ... THE WORLD'S largest test of artificial intelligence suggests that "chat
    robots" can fool three people in every 10 asked to distinguish the
    conversation of a human from that of a machine. The result backs a
    prediction by the British father of artificial intelligence, Alan Turing, that by
    the end of the 20th century a computer would be mistaken as human 30
    per cent of the time, if what he called the "imitation game" was limited to
    five- minute conversations. Although computers remain some way from
    winning the battle between man and machine for supremacy, they are
    moving in the right direction, according to the test conducted by around
    20,000 people, ... exchanged typed messages with an individual and were
    asked to say whether they were dealing with a human or an artificial
    intelligence program .... 19 per cent of votes cast thought Ali was human.
    I..., 29 per cent thought Mel was human. " Talking with Ali: You: Hello Ali:
    Hi there You: My girlfriend cheated on me, what will I do? Ali: How long
    have you two been together? You: 38573 years Ali: Only 38573? You are
    quite mature. [This dialogue suggests that the increase in humans
    mistaking computer `conversation' for the real thing might be more a
    commentary on humans' decline as conversationalists than the
    computers' improvement?]

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000322/sc/science_genome_1.html
    Yahoo! ...March 22 ... Scientists Back Call for Open Access to Gene Map
    LONDON (Reuters) - Scientists ... backed a call by the leaders of the
    United States and Britain for open access to research on the mapping of
    human genes. In a joint statement ... Bruce Alberts, the president of the
    U.S. National Academy of Sciences and Sir Aaron Klug, the president of
    Britain's Royal Society, said the human genome information must be
    available without charge or impediment. ... They gave their full support to
    a statement issued by President Clinton and Prime Minister Tony Blair
    last week which called for information about the human genetic sequence
    to be rapidly released into the public domain. .. following the apparent
    breakdown of an agreement by publicly and privately funded scientists
    working on genome research. Celera Genomics, ... was pushing for
    exclusive commercial rights of distribution to the merged products, a
    condition which the scientists working on the publicly- funded Human
    Genome Project cannot accept. ... they endorsed patent laws to reward
    creators of inventions that will benefit society, but criticised the practice of
    striking a claim to a large number of genes without having an idea of what
    their functions are. ... The Human Genome Project plans to sequence a
    draft map of the human genetic map by the spring and the full sequence
    the entire human genome ... by 2003. ... [More pressure on Celera. IMHO
    no one should be able to patent genes, since they are part of the natural
    world. It is like patenting the sun!]

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000323/sc/fly_uses_2.html Yahoo! ...
    ... March 23 ... Fly Gene Map May Have Many Uses, Scientists Say ...
    ROCKVILLE, Md. (Reuters) - They are so uncoordinated that they fall
    over and get stuck in their own food, with fatal results, but new genetically
    engineered fruit flies may help scientists understand how humans enjoy
    symphonies and even manage to walk down the street. The study... is one
    more example of just how useful the humble fruit fly is to scientists. Easy
    to breed and experiment on, the tiny flies have helped scientists
    understand aging, diseases such as Parkinson's and basic functions such
    as hearing, smelling and sleep. A coalition of public and private scientists
    including the Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR) and Celera
    Genomics ... announced ... they had sequenced the genome of the fly.
    Known scientifically as Drosophila melanogaster, it is the largest animal
    yet to have its genes sequenced. Researchers hope understanding its
    genes will help them understand more about what makes us human, and
    how diseases work. "In essence, we are nothing but a big fly," Charles
    Zuker, a professor of biology ...said ... [Now that's what I call reductionist
    thinking!]

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000323/sc/science_celera_2.html
    Yahoo! ... ... March 23 ... Gene Mapping Company Says Intentions
    Misunderstood ... ROCKVILLE, Md. (Reuters) - Celera Genomics feels
    mightily misunderstood these days... it was accused of planning to keep
    all this information to itself, patenting the genes to prevent anyone else
    from benefiting from the knowledge. ...President Clinton and British Prime
    Minister Tony Blair to issue a joint statement .. saying scientists around
    the world should have free access to research on the mapping of human
    genes. Celera's stock dove on the news ... Celera announced ... that
    much of its information would soon be available on the Internet. ...
    Celera... does not intend to make money on the sequences themselves.
    ... we're going to give the information away ... What will make money for
    the company, he said, is the analysis of just what those sequences mean
    .... He gave as an example database giant Lexis-Nexis, which sells its
    online service as a way of searching publicly available information. Its
    power lies not in the actual newspaper articles and legal documents,
    which anyone could find with a little bit of effort, but in the shortcuts it
    provides to finding that information. "We want to be the next Lexis- Nexis
    of biology," ... [The problem for Celera is that others could do the same if
    the genome map is made public.]

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000323/sc/space_gammarays_2.html
    Yahoo! ... March 23 ... Mysterious Gamma Ray Sources Found in Milky
    Way ... WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A swarm of strange and powerful
    gamma ray sources have been discovered in Earth's cosmic
    neighborhood, and scientists are still trying to figure out just what they
    are. This new class of gamma ray emitters, as they are called, might be
    small black holes scattered throughout the Milky Way galaxy, the
    remnants of exploded stars or some kind of weird pulsars ... What ever
    they are, they account for about half of the 170 unidentified sources of
    gamma rays in the universe. ... Also at:
    http://cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/23/gamma.ray/index.html CNN ...
    New class of gamma rays discovered in Milky Way ... March 23, 2000 ....
    GREENBELT , Maryland (CNN) -- Astronomers have detected a new
    class of gamma rays coming from a mysterious source or sources within
    our own galaxy. Gamma rays are invisible to the eye, but are the most
    powerful form of light, far exceeding visible light, ultraviolet radiation and
    X-rays. There are 271 known sources of gamma rays in the universe,
    which before this discovery were thought to originate in the distant
    reaches of the universe, far beyond the Milky Way. Those distant sources
    emit gamma rays in sudden bursts. ... But research ... suggests the 170 of
    the gamma ray sources are located within our Milky Way galaxy. Many
    could reside in Gould Belt ..Scientists are still struggling to understand
    what types of objects emit these gamma rays. Potential candidates
    include black holes, massive stars, neutron stars and clusters of pulsars.
    But more research is required to determine the sources... [It will be
    interesting to see what these turn out to be and what effect, if any, it will
    have on physics and cosmology.]

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000113078204876&rtmo=VwGlxxux&atmo=tttttttd&pg=/et/00/3/16/ecnqua16.html
    Electronic Telegraph 16.03.00 Quantum jumbo found ... A NEW law of
    physics has been discovered that suggests the next generation of
    computer will be the elephant of the electronic world - never mislaying or
    deleting data. Scientists worldwide are working on "quantum computers",
    a novel kind of computer that promises much greater number- crunching
    power by exploiting the strange properties of quantum mechanics, the
    theory which works at the dimensions of atoms and molecules that
    microchip components are fast approaching. Quantum computers are
    able to carry out vast numbers of calculations in parallel. However, one
    unforseen consequence of quantum theory is that information can never
    be deleted.... While this may protect users from accidental or deliberate
    deletion of programs and data, it also suggests that quantum computers
    will require vast amounts of memory. ... [It sounds to me that if they can't
    delete the information while making their calculations, it might severely
    limit the applicability of quantum computing.]

    http://cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/23/time.machine.ap/index.html CNN
    ... Particle collider to recreate universe's first moments ... March 23, 2000
    ... UPTON, New York (AP) -- ... physicists are preparing to travel back to
    the dawn of the universe. In a few weeks their time machine, buried
    beneath the Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory, will
    begin stripping gold atoms of their electrons and accelerating them to
    99.995 percent of the speed of light. Then it will smash pairs of the atoms
    together with such violence that the collisions will generate temperatures
    10,000 times hotter than the sun. ... the total energy in each collision will
    be comparable to that of a mosquito landing on a screen door. But that
    energy will be ... concentrated enough to tear apart an atomic nucleus. ...
    Current theory indicates that the first atoms first appeared about a second
    after the universe itself -- so tearing them apart means re-creating what
    came before. Physicists picture that realm, which would have formed just
    microseconds after the Big Bang, as a trillion-degree cauldron known as
    the quark- gluon plasma. ... "What we hope to do is to make the quark-
    gluon plasma and then to actually probe and understand its properties," ...
    Nuclear physics is built on a theory known as quantum chromodynamics.
    Ever since it was developed in the 1960s the theory has been predicting
    the outcomes of experiments with incredible precision. As proud as they
    are of it, physicists can't wait for the day when they find some hole, some
    special circumstance where their theory fails completely. The last time
    something like that happened, early in the 20th century, relativity and
    quantum dynamics came to the rescue. The new ideas revolutionized
    physics and made things like computers, lasers and nuclear weapons
    possible. So physicists actually welcome things they don't understand.
    "Finding and nailing the plasma would be fantastic," ... "The only thing
    more fantastic would be some totally unexpected surprise that defies our
    predictions." ... [This illustrates the difference between physics and
    evolutionary biology. In general, the physicists seek to falsify their
    theories, but the evolutionary biologists seek to protect their theories from
    falsification.]

    http://cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/22/buckyballs/index.html .. Outer
    space gas trapped on Earth in 'buckyballs' .... March 22, 2000 ... .
    HONOLULU, Hawaii (CNN) -- Extraterrestrial gases have been trapped
    on Earth for millions of years by complex molecular structures known as
    buckyballs, scientists reported this week. The discovery offers a new
    method to trace geological and biological events linked to colossal
    meteorite and comet strikes and strengthens the theory that some
    terrestrial atmospheric gases and organic compounds originated in space.
    "This finding opens new possibilities in looking at the problem of how
    planetary atmospheres evolved and maybe even how life evolved on
    Earth and perhaps other moons and planets," ... Becker and two
    colleagues found the trapped extraterrestrial gases in samples ... taken
    from a one-inch (2.5- cm) layer of sedimentary clay that divides the
    Cretaceous and Tertiary periods. The clay layer formed about 65 million
    years ago from the fallout of a massive impact crater that many scientists
    think set off mass extinctions, including that of the dinosaurs.... The
    trapped gases contain high concentrations of helium 3, a type of helium
    with only three subatomic particles that's found mostly in space. ..Becker
    also seeks to find out if fullerenes delivered carbon compounds and other
    substances necessary for life to emerge. "... A third form of pure carbon
    after diamonds and graphite, so-called buckyballs are composed of
    dozens or hundreds of carbon molecules that have bonded together into
    hollow, geodesic "cages.". ... [Interesting but I fail to see how the
    discovery of gases trapped inside fullarenes would shed much light on
    "how life evolved on Earth". The article says they were formed "under
    dense pressures and extreme temperatures ...in a high energy plasma".
    Presumably that means that anything they once contained would have
    been vapourised]

    HIV/AIDS:

    http://library.newsday.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=38e3d07b627cbMshakeP11000&doc=hdresults.html ...
    Added Foe in AIDS War: Skeptics ... 03-29-2000 ...The leader of the most
    influential African nation has opened debate in recent months on whether
    or not HIV causes AIDS, has issued a blistering attack against the
    international pharmaceutica l industry and has ordered formation of a
    commission that will review all of the primary assumptions about the
    global AIDS epidemic- including whether it even exists. South African
    President Thabo Mbeki ... office issued a statement last week
    condemning drug companies that "propagate fear to increase profits; the
    profit-takers who are benefiting from the scourge of HIV/AIDS will
    disappear to the affluent beaches of the world to enjoy wealth
    accumulated from a humankind ravaged by a dreaded disease." Then ...
    his office issued [a] ... statement denying that Mbeki had ever stated that
    HIV was not the cause of AIDS. ... Dr. Mark Wainberg, president of the
    International AIDS Societies, ... denounced Dr. Peter Duesberg, a
    professor in the molecular biology department of the University of
    California at Berkeley, and his followers who insist that HIV is a harmless
    virus and AIDS a nonexistent disease. ... Wainberg suggested that their
    actions warrant criminal prosecution. AIDS vaccine researcher John
    Moore ... goes further, saying that "a charge of genocide would not be
    inappropriate .. Berkley, head of the New York- based International AIDS
    Vaccine Initiative, likened the nonbelief in HIV "to those that believe that
    the Holocaust did not occur." ... Duesberg first raised his theory in 1987.
    But Mbeki's public support for the skeptics' point of view is the first such
    action taken by a head of state. ...an "expert panel" would convene to
    review evidence that HIV causes AIDS and allegations that the AIDS drug
    AZT is poisonous... Among those invited to participate in the commission
    are Duesberg and Dr. Sam Mhlongo ... Mhlongo has said the epidemic
    was concocted by drug companies to hook South Africa on costly anti-
    HIV drugs.. we cannot confine our response to the problem of HIV/AIDS
    to an injunction not to speak to [HIV skeptics] or telling people how to
    think." The skeptics come from a broad range of backgrounds and
    political affiliations. There are political conservatives who dispute the
    notion that HIV is transmitted heterosexually , [and] gay radicals from San
    Francisco ... All share one common article of faith: that HIV is harmless. ...
    skeptics argue that AZT is a poison; AIDS, they insist, is actually caused
    by the drug used in its treatment. South African skeptic Anthony Brink ...
    insisted that "no one has ever been cured by AZT, but it sells like
    hotcakes all the same...and it reaps profits counted in billions."
    ...Geshekter also disputes the use of the system called the Banqui
    Definition to make HIV diagnoses. Formulated by the World Health
    Organization ... Banqui, commonly used in Africa, offers doctors a list of
    symptoms- some combination of which must be present to diagnose
    AIDS. Geshekter argues that the symptoms- including rapid weight loss,
    diarrhea and specific types of skin cancers-are more likely to be
    reflections of economic underdevelopment. ... Duesberg insists that AIDS
    in the African context is "nothing more than a new name for old diseases,"
    ... Tom Bethell ..., "People are not dying of AIDS but of the diseases that
    have always afflicted those parts of the globe where water is not clean
    and sewage is not properly disposed of"... Gayle, who heads up AIDS
    programs for the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. ...
    denounced the skeptics and said that "there is no merit in questioning
    conventional wisdom" about HIV.... [The reactions of the pro-drug
    establishment: " criminal prosecution", "genocide", "Holocaust did not
    occur" and "no merit in questioning conventional wisdom" is disturbingly
    unscientific. They sound just like people with something to hide. if they
    were confident of their case they should *welcome* the chance to finally
    prove the AIDS skeptics like Duesberg wrong. BTW if this "Banqui
    Definition" of AIDS is not the same as the definition used in Western
    countries, then the African statistics might be inflated with non-HIV/AIDS
    cases.]
    ========================================================

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "We have repeatedly emphasized the fundamental problems posed for the
    biologist by the fact of life's complex organization. We have seen that
    organization requires work for its maintenance and that the universal quest for
    food is in part to provide the energy needed for this work. But the simple
    expenditure of energy is not sufficient to develop and maintain order. A bull in
    a china shop performs work, but he neither creates nor maintains organization.
    The work needed is particular work; it must follow specifications; it requires
    information on how to proceed." (Simpson G.G., & Beck W.S., "Life: An
    Introduction To Biology," [1957], Routledge & Kegan Paul: London, Second
    Edition, 1965, p.466)
    Stephen E. Jones | sejones@iinet.net.au | http://www.iinet.net.au/~sejones
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------



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