Re: The puzzle of Adam

----- Original Message -----
From: <RFaussette@aol.com>
To: ""Don Perrett"" <donperrett@genesisproclaimed.org>; ""George Murphy""
<gmurphy@raex.com>
Cc: ""ASA Discussions"" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: The puzzle of Adam

>I would say that accountability comes with awareness of God's will -
>indicated in Gen.2 by the prohibition of the tree of knowledge. & before
>our ancestors were able to be aware of God's revelation (in whatever form
>it came) they weren't human _in a theological sense_.
>
> rich:
> They weren't human in a "human" sense either. They did not have free will,
> no self-consciousness.
>
> george:
> & yes, salvation is not return to a pre-fall paradisal state. We are to
> move forward - to "grow up into Christ" (Eph.4:15)
>
> Shalom
> George
>
>
> rich:
> Salvation is most certainly a return to Adam's pre-fall ontology. This is
> most clearly seen in the gospel of thomas when Jesus tells Mary Magdalene
> not to leave because he will make her male so she can enter the kingdom.
> "For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of
> heaven." last line of GofT
>
> also:
> "When Eve was still in Adam death did not exist. When she was separated
> from him, death came into being. If he enters again and attains his former
> self, death will be no more."
> The Gospel of Philip, Nag Hammadi 68
>
> "If he attains his former self" refers to a possible ontological return,
> not a chronological one.
>
> male+female=pre-fall Adamic state
>
> Let me ask a question. Do you restrict yourself to canonical texts when
> trying to flesh out religious ideas on this list? I use everything
> available that will shed light on the subject such as the talmud, the nag
> hammadi texts, the dead sea scrolls.

I don't restrict myself exclusively to canonical texts, but they are
canonical & have an authority that others don't have. The Gospel of Thomas
may preserve some genuine sayings of Jesus, but one reason for being a bit a
bit wary of it is that it contains only putative sayings & has no passion
account. It also displays significant Gnostic influence. In particular,
the type of denigration of women shown in the logion you cite is completely
different from the attitude that Jesus shows in the canonical gospels. I
see no reason to attribute any weight to that verse. (It shows the same
sort of notion as Aristotle's - & unfortunately Aquinas' - belief that women
are defective men.)

On the general issue: Certainly the Urzeit-Endzeit theme is used in some
places but never just in its simplistic form. E.g., in Revelation there is
the tree of life but it's in the middle of a _city_, not the garden of the
Urzeit. NT eschatology in general is forward looking - "Behold I make all
things new." Creation is not only by Christ but _for_Christ (Col.1:15-20).
He is the purpose of creation (Eph.1:10), not "Adam."

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
Received on Thu Dec 2 19:58:46 2004