Here is what one offline Christian had to say about this topic. I think this
frankly sums things up nicely.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Scheller [mailto:rschelle@allegisgroup.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:13 PM
To: Shuan Rose
Cc: John Woodworth; Dan Pugh; Pin H. Chen; Rick Grill; Tim Griffin
Subject: Re: cosmology & polygamy
One thing I have to admit in all of these discussions is that (if we say we
are intellectually honest), then we might have to admit that there might be
some 'unsolvable' ethical dilemmas in the OT vis-a-vis the NT. However, in
every branch of human intellectual endeavor, there are probably unsolvable
dilemmas, paradoxes, etc- which we accept- I start from the position that we
are to expect ethical dilemma's- the question is more how to approach these
problem passages (and there are some very difficult passages).
With that being said, it does appear that the same God who issued forth the
10 Commandments (Do not murder...) apparently not only condoned, but
commanded the 'killing' of infants, children, and women (in 1 Sam 15:2-3).
This is a very difficult problem passage for me, not only because of the
killing of children and infants, but because there appears to be a
'dehumanization' of the Amalekites. (Now, I realize some respond by
pointing out the incredible immorality of the Amalekites- but that hardly
seems to justify the killing of infants and children). Yet, the passage
reads as it does- and I can't deny what it says.
Anyhow, most of us should be bothered by this- I surely am- but I live with
the tension because I don't like the alternative interpretations and the
implications of those interpretations.
Oh well, I am still seeking to understand, and have chosen to live with the
tension.
Ron
Shuan Rose wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: John Woodworth [mailto:towed@toad.net]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:39 PM
To: Ron Scheller; Dan Pugh; Pin H. Chen; Rick Grill; Tim Griffin; Shuan
Rose
Subject: Re: cosmology & polygamy
Shuan, et al. Numbers 31 does not say "rape", but "keep for
yourselves", which allows the taking of wives from among the captives.John,
this is really not all that different than rape. A soldier bursts into the
house, kills all the men, and says " You're comiing with me and you're going
to have sex with me whenever you want to". Thats rape, pure & simple. And
Slavery.Calling it "taking of wives" is a euphemism. The other
consideration is contained in the promise in Genesis 15:16. When the
iniquity of the Amorites (and others) became "FULL", they were to be
exterminated as one would excise a cancer. Even the childern, and animals
were consecrated to demons - Deut 18:9-14, & I Cor 10:20.The problem, of
course, for Burgy and I, is the slaughter of children , who do not know
better. I can accept judgment of adults-just barely, but the coldblooded
slaughter of children is a problem for me . I really cannot see people who
would do that as any better than the 911 suicide bombers. they thought that
they did God's work too.I don't like the cancer language, either. That
sounds too close to the rehetoric the Nazis used against the Jews. They also
referred to the Jews as a disease infecting the body of the pure Aryan race,
as incorrigibly bad, as vermin to be exterminated, etc. DEhumanisation of
other people is the first step to committing genocide, and it is always
helpful if you can say "This is the will of God" The difference after
Christ (Acts 1:8 & 2:4) is that members of the church now have the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit w/ which to deal w/ the demonic. His presence
in us is the Salt and Light that preserves society, and exposes sin (though
one could certainly note that such witness is growing weaker).Well, we
certainly need to work harder on our witness. Unfortunately, these Biblical
passages do complicate the woork of evangelism. The author of the Skeptics
Annotated Bible (an athiest ) said it was reading such passages as this that
convinced him that the Bible could not be the inspired word of God.This is
from the introduction to the SAB:For nearly two billion people, the Bible is
a holy book containing the revealed word of God. It is the source of their
religious beliefs. Yet few of those who believe in the Bible have actually
read it.
This must seem strange to those who have never read the Bible. But
anyone who has struggled through its repetitious and tiresome trivia,
seemingly endless genealogies, pointless stories and laws, knows that the
Bible is not an easy book to read. So it is not surprising that those that
begin reading at Genesis seldom make it through Leviticus. And the few
Bible-believers that survive to the bitter end of Revelation must
continually face a disturbing dilemma: their faith tells them they should
read the Bible, but by reading the Bible they endanger their faith.
When I was a Christian, I never read the Bible. Not all the way through,
anyway. The problem was that I believed the Bible to be the inspired and
inerrant word of God, yet the more I read it, the less credible that belief
became. I finally decided that to protect my faith in the Bible, I'd better
quit trying to read it.
I think most Bible-believers find themselves in that position --
although few will admit it. Not even to themselves.
You might think his view is harsh. (I think it is harsh). Yet he may be
closer to the truth that those who blithely proclaim that the Bible is
inerrant without coming to grips with the tough passages ( and there are
many of those) Before Pentecost the only way given to remove the effects
of posession was to remove the posessed. (see above passage in Deut.)See
above for the analogy to Nazism. THey too had a Final Solution for the
problem of people who they viewed as
- John From: Shuan Rose
To: Tim Griffin ; Rick Grill ; Pin H. Chen ; John Woodworth ; Dan Pugh
; Ron Scheller
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:14 PM
Subject: FW: cosmology & polygamy
I think this is a real, serious question for those who simply take
the Bible to be literal and inerrant on all matters.I don't really want to
agree with Burgy, but I don't have a good answer, either. Anyone has an
answer?Maybe this can be a lunch discussion topic.
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of John (Burgy) Burgeson
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:39 PM
To: MckenNeil@aol.com; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: cosmology & polygamy
Neil wrote: "You wrote 'I simply cannot claim that an edict to kill
the
children and rape the young girls (as a god purportedly commanded
Saul) can
possibly be reconciled with the Father God whom Jesus proclaimed.'
I would like to know where the Bible says God commanded the
Israelites to
rape women and children."
----------------------
Fair question.
The edict was to rape the virgins and kill the male children. It is
found in
Numbers 31:17-18. Another edict like it, although rape is not
mentioned, is
in I Sam 15:3-9. That one specifically includes the killing of
infants.
Other passages are in Joshua, perhaps a dozen of them.
Another one, Deu 22:28-29, says that if a man rapes a virgin, and is
discovered, she is obliged to marry him. Nice way to start a
covenant
marriage! A chapter earlier, Deu 21:10-13, gives specific directions
on
taking by force a captive "beautiful woman" after killing her
parents. And
don't forget Deu 25:5, where, if you are a married lady, and your
husband
dies, your brother-in-law gets to have sex with you independent of
any other
ideas you may have.
There are possibly more -- but you get the idea.
Two positions seem clear to me. (1) the god who edicted those things
is the
"real God." (2) the text represents what the ancient Hebrews THOUGHT
that
God was telling them, but, in fact, they were mistaken.
As I said earlier, I cannot personally reconcile (1) with the Father
God
that Jesus talked about in the NT. That there may be a third
position than
the two above is possible; I have not thought of it.
Cordially,
John
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