On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:23:37 +0100 "Michael Roberts"
<topper@robertschirk.u-net.com> writes:
> However Yellowstone can only be comparable with St Helens if neither
> appear to have a root system.
The talk/slide show Ted heard Bill Hoesch give was put together by Steve
Austin, also of ICR. Steve sell the set of slides; there is also a video
of the slide show.
In the talk, Steve (and I guess Bill Hoesch) says that some of the root
ends of the Yellowstone petrified trees are exposed by erosion, and the
roots are broken off 2 or 3 feet from the base of the stump (and shows a
slide), just like we see at Mt. St. Helens.
> Be careful in allowing oneself to be convinced because sedimentation
can
> take place at a rate of feet per day it will keep it up for a long
time.
> However the succesion of strata with clear top and bottoms of beds
indicate
> a pause inbetween so the top can dry out or consilidate before the next
> layer. So how long does that take?
In the Mt. St. Helens slide show, Steve has a slide showing very thin
bedding in a 25-foot thick "stratified pyroclastic flow deposit" produced
within 5 hours on June 12, 1980. "These flows of ground-hugging gas and
ash moved at speeds of 100 miles per hour and produced extraordinary
deposits. We might expect high-velocity slurries to produce homogenized
and thoroughly mixed deposits. We normally think that stratification
forms slowly, for example, from seasonal or yearly alternations in slow
processes. However, we discovered that pyroclastic flows are able to
separate coarse and fine particles into very fine layers.... We find it
hard to believe that these deposits formed in an event more violent than
a hurricane."
The next slide shows thin bedding in the Tapeats Sandstone of Grand
Canyon. "Geologists have been puzzled by the thin layering in Grand
Canyon sandstones. Does it represent slow and continuous sedimentation
during millions of years? That is what is often assumed. Gas-charged
slurries which deposited Mt. St. Helens layers are similar to the
water-charged slurries which deposited Grand Canyon layers. Both
processes are turbulent suspensions and fast-moving flows, and can be
characterized by the same principles of physics."
> For Wheaton gen ed geologists I tried to
> play with this in June. We were looking at a succession from the
Cambrain to
> the Creataceous say 20,000ft thick. One day we were looking at a 40ft
cliff
> of Cambrian sandstone and as half my students were YEC, I asked them to
> count the layers . They came to 70. Now I allowed a day to deposit each
> layer and asked how long a pause between layers. Suggestion - at least
a
> week. So for that 40ft you needed 8X 70 days i.e. 560 days - which
rules
> out Noah .
> There were about 20,000 beds in our succession so that would need
8X20,000
> days i.e. 160,000 days i.e 450 years assuming rapid depostion by
rivers in
> flood.
>
> Clarely this needs to be put over in a sophiscated manner but then even
> allowing rapid depostion as Creationists insist on we end up with too
long a
> time for YEC to be substantiated.
Your conclusion is based upon an assumption (the time required to deposit
each layer) with absolutely no empirical support. If the thin beds in
the 25-foot thick Mt. St. Helens pyroclastic-flow deposit are each 1/16th
inch thick, then the are 25 ft x 16 beds/ft = 400 beds deposited in no
more than 5 hours, or 80 bds/hr. Assuming this conservative rate for
your 20,000 beds: 20,000 beds/80 bds/hr = 250 hours or 10.4 days, not 450
years.
I joined Steve for a couple of days one summer when he was taking his ICR
geology students through his thesis area in western Kentucky. At
breakfast one morning one of his students commented that he had trouble
vizualizing how everything we see could have happened in the one-year
Flood. Having presented Steve's slide show several times myself and
therefore understanding his mindset, I knew what was coming next. Sure
enough, he said: "I have trouble understanding what was going on the
rest of the year, since erosion and deposition occurred so quickly."
Bill
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