Eugenie Replies to Bill Demski

From: Dick Fischer (dickfischer@earthlink.net)
Date: Tue Feb 13 2001 - 23:59:54 EST

  • Next message: Blaine D. McArthur: "Re: Eugenie Replies to Bill Demski"

    Thought you all might be interested in Eugenie Scott's reply to Bill Demski:

    Scott replies to Dembski

    William Dembski has responded to my January 18 Tom Jukes Memorial Lecture
    at UC Berkeley. Others are responding on META and elsewhere to the focus
    of his essay, whether natural selection is testable, and I shall not do so
    here. I should, however comment on views attributed to me.

    I wasn’t really dealing with the testability of ID, though that is the
    impression one might get from Dembski’s essay. In this public lecture, I
    discussed both traditional creation science as well as Neocreationism, and
    compared them. I talked about Behe’s irreducible complexity idea, and
    Dembski’s Design Inference, and illustrated religious motivation for
    fighting evolution. I am not especially concerned with whether ID is
    testable. I look at the testability of ID the same way I look at the
    testability of traditional Young Earth Creationism (YEC): YEC can make
    empirically or logically or statistically testable statements (the Earth
    was covered by a body of water, all living things are descended from
    creatures that came off a boat) but its foundational claim that everything
    came into being suddenly in its present form through the efforts of a
    supernatural creator is not a scientifically testable claim. I’ll let
    theologians argue over whether Special Creationism is good theology, but
    evoking omnipotent supernatural causes puts one smack out of the realm of
    science, protestations of the validity of “theistic science”
    notwithstanding. One cannot use natural processes to hold constant the
    actions of supernatural forces; hence it is impossible to test (by
    naturalistic methodology) supernatural explanations (Scott, 1998
    ). Whether a supernatural force does or does not act is thus outside of
    what science can tell us.

    Similarly, ID can make empirically or logically or statistically testable
    claims (that certain structures are irreducibly complex; by using
    probability arguments like the “design filter” one can detect design) but
    the foundational claim that a supernatural “intelligence” is behind it all
    is not a scientifically testable statement. (And please, let’s be grownups
    here: we’re not talking about a disembodied, vague “intelligence” that
    *might* be material, we’re talking about God, an intelligent agent that
    can do things that, according to ID, mortals and natural processes like
    natural selection cannot. Not for nothing does Dembski say that ID is the
    bridge between science and theology.)

    In my talk, I wasn’t deploring the untestability of ID *per se* but the
    fact that its proponents don’t present testable models. I was referring to
    the fact that ID proponents don’t present a model *at all* – in the sense
    of saying what happened when. At least YEC presents a view of “what
    happens:”the universe appeared within thousands of years ago, at one time,
    in its present form, living things are descended from specially created
    “kinds” from which they have not varied except in trivial ways, there was a
    universal flood that produced the modern geological features, and humans
    are specially created apart from all other forms. So what happened in the
    ID model?

      I said (and have said repeatedly) that the message of ID is “evolution is
    bad science”, without providing an alternative view of the history of the
    universe. This is not trivial: in books by Philip Johnson as well as in
    Jonathan Wells’ new *Icons of Evolution* teachers are told that they should
    be teaching students about how evolution is a weak, unsubstantiated “theory
    in crisis”, to use former antievolutionist Michael Denton’s phrase. The
    theories of astronomical, geological and biological evolution attempt to
    explain evidence demonstrating that the universe has been around for a long
    time, and has gradually unfolded from a different form to its present
    form. There are lots of details in there, about when and how things
    happened: when our galaxy formed, when other galaxies formed, when Earth
    formed and out of what matter, when warthogs or whortleberries or
    liverworts came to resemble their present forms, and on. Something
    happened, and we’re trying to figure out what, and trying to figure out the
    mechanisms that brought it about. ID tells us that evolution didn’t happen
    (what else is one supposed to take away from *Icons of Evolution*?) but it
    doesn’t tell us what *did*.

    Unless ID proponents can come up with an actual model of “what happened”,
    all they have is a sterile antievolutionism that adds little to YEC beyond
    the specific ideas of irreducible complexity and the design filter.

    The reason ID proponents are so vague about an actual picture of what
    happened is that they strive to include YECs, progressive creationists
    (PCs), and theistic evolutionists (TEs) among their theorists and
    supporters (though the TE gang must feel rather uncomfortable, Dembski
    himself having proclaimed that “ID is no friend of theistic evolution”
    (Dembski, 1995). This is not just a big tent – it is one bulging with
    people who must be eying one another warily. Phil Johnson may want
    everyone to just be nice for the time being until evolution is vanquished,
    and then they can work out their disagreements, but if you think
    evolutionists squabble, wait until you see what happens when the ID folks
    have to sort out their differences.

    As Ronald Numbers and Kelly Smith independently urged at last summer’s
    “Design and Its Critics” conference, if ID is going to attain any level of
    scholarly respectability, its proponents are going to have to distinguish
    their model from the discredited, unscientific YEC model, even if that
    means losing the support of biblical literalist Christians. For aspiring
    scholarly movements, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

    Given my odd line of work, I’m concerned with practical issues such as what
    teachers are being told to do, and what effect this will have on American
    education. As near as I can tell, teachers are being encouraged to teach
    students that evolution didn’t happen, and that if it did, that natural
    selection isn’t the cause of it, and that in any event we have to leave
    room for the direct actions of a Creator, and all this is still called
    science. But to keep all the ID factions quiet, an actual picture of what
    happened – which is what evolution is trying to explain and what ID has to
    explain – is never mentioned. What should teachers teach? Apparently,
    judging from *Icons of Evolution*, they should teach the familiar old YEC
    saws about the weaknesses of evolution. Evolution is bad science, they
    say. So to my way of thinking, ID doesn’t rise above familiar
    antievolutionism, though it may be served up in probability theory and
    information theory with a side order of biochemistry, but there is no
    coherent ID model of what happened for teachers to actually teach.

    This invites the question of what, according to the proponents of ID,
    should teachers teach about the following issues?

    1) Is the universe a few thousand years old or billions? Most ID
    proponents will if forced, uncomfortably confess that they accept an
    ancient age of the earth, but they are quick to dismiss the question as
    unimportant, presumably to keep the YECs in the antievolution tent. But
    should a teacher teach that the earth is millions or thousands of years
    old? You can’t have it both ways if you are proposing a K-12 curriculum.
    What is the ID model? What happened?

    2) Is the geological column which shows a succession of species through
    time, “real”– or an artifact? At least the YECs present a model of what
    happened: the arrangement of species in the geological column is a result
    of sorting by Noah’s flood, rather than their appearance at different
    times. Does ID accept the geological column as “real”? This is a simple
    thing to agree to: it is still possible to argue (as Jonathan Wells does)
    that the arrangement of species through time doesn’t represent descent with
    modification – but Dembski et al. are going to have to come clean as to
    what this means. Minimally, it means the Special Creationists are wrong,
    but it also requires the PCs and the TEs to fight it out as to whether the
    succession of species through time represents separate creations or a
    geneological pattern of related species.

    3) Did living things descend with modification from common
    ancestors? This is what biological evolution is all about, and where the
    ID big tent starts showing the strain of trying to stretch over
    incompatible views. How is ID going to accommodate both Theistic
    Evolutionist Michael Behe and Special Creationist Paul Nelson? More
    important, what do proponents of ID expect teachers to teach? What happened?

    I think I know the answer. Teachers are supposed to teach that evolution
    didn’t happen. Of course, if they did, they would be teaching a view that
    is well outside the scientific mainstream, and be doing their students no
    favors. I like to remind people that evolution is taught matter-of-factly
    at every solid university in the nation, including Brigham Young, Notre
    Dame, and Baylor. But more importantly for our purposes here, ID does not
    present a coherent model of “what happened”, making it impossible for
    teachers to present ID as an alternative to evolution, as proponents seek.

    Now, maybe Dembski or other ID proponents will tell me that they are not
    trying to influence the K-12 curriculum, that they are merely trying to
    build a scholarly movement at the university or intellectual level,
    trusting that eventually ID will be validated and like other intellectual
    movements, it will trickle down to the K-12 level. If Dembski had attended
    my talk, he would have heard me advocate exactly this strategy. I don’t
    think ID will enter the academic mainstream, but if it does, then obviously
    it will eventually be taught in high school. But I don’t think ID
    proponents are willing to wait until they get this validation: Jonathan
    Wells, whose book provides disclaimers to be copied and placed in K-12
    textbooks, is obviously concerned primarily with the K-12 curriculum;
    Philip Johnson’s *Defeating Darwinism* is explicitly aimed at high school
    students; and CRSC’s Steven Meyer is an author of a substantial “Afterward”
    to teachers in the ID high school textbook, *Of Pandas and People*. Bruce
    Gordon, presently interim director of The Baylor Science and Religion
    Project, has correctly noted, : ID “has been prematurely drawn into
    discussions of public science education, where it has no business making an
    appearance without broad recognition from the scientific community that it
    is making a worthwhile contribution to our understanding of the natural
    world” (Gordon, 2001).

    So, what happened, Bill? Will you go beyond “evolution is bad science” to
    give us an actual model?

    References

    Dembski, William
    1995 What every theologian should know about creation, evolution, and
    design. Center for Interdisciplinary Studies Transactions 3(2):3.

    2001 Is Intelligent Design Testable? A Reply to Eugenie Scott. META
    004. 2001.01.24.

    Scott, Eugenie C.
    1998 Two kinds of materialism. *Free Inquiry*, Spring, 1998, p. 20.

    I thank Glenn Branch for useful comments.

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    Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution - www.orisol.com
    "The answer we should have known about 150 years ago."



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