A comparison of early 1800 apologetics with modern apologetics.

From: glenn morton (glenn.morton@btinternet.com)
Date: Sun Oct 29 2000 - 05:31:42 EST

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    (This is long--sorry-and will make everyone mad at me once again)

    One of the things I decided to do while I was here in Scotland was to obtain
    some of the original editions of creationist books from the 1800s. Many of
    them were published here in the UK so I am hoping to be able to find them
    among antiquarian book stores. In that quest, one of the authors I wanted
    to obtain was Granville Penn. Penn is a name that no one today knows, but he
    was influential in Christianity taking the young-earth path as he was one of
    the first Christians to publish young-earth material as Geologists were
    rejecting both the deluge and the 6,000 year old earth. I had first heard of
    Penn in Hugh Miller's _Testimony of the Rocks_ where one of Penn's earlier
    books, _Comparative Estimate of the Mineral and Mosaical Geologies_ (London:
    1825), was cited. (I hope to find this gem)

    I was surprised to find Penn's _Conversations on Geology_ (London: J. W.
    Southgate and Son, 1840) on the shelf of a book seller at a book fair we
    went to a few weeks ago. (over here you have to pay to get into a book
    seller's fair which I find a bit odd).

    Anyway, Penn illustrates two things about apologetical efforts. First, it
    illustrates young-earth creationism's utter stagnation, in which the same
    ideas advocated 160 years ago are the same ones advocated today. Like people
    in the mythical Brigadoon, young-earth creationists are stuck in a time warp
    from which it is difficult to escape. Secondly, Penn's book illustrates the
    arrogance of apologists who think they can defy the data and conclusions of
    their age. Often the apologist fancies that he alone has solved the riddle
    of the ages and that future generations will applaud him even if the present
    one disdains his solution. This arrogance is quite obvious in Penn's writing
    because of the literary style he chose. Thirdly, it illustrates the poor
    scholarship of the young-earth creationist in that the originators of
    various ideas are given no credit by modern writers, who probably are not
    even aware of the intellectual debt that is owed.

    Penn occupied a pivotal position in the history of young-earth creationism.
    Leaders of Geology were rejecting the Mosaic account just as Penn was
    penning his books. Sedgwick had given up on the flood in 1831. He wrote:

    "Having been myself a believer, and, to the best of my power, a propagator
    of what I now regard as a philosophic heresy, and having more than once been
    quoted for opinions I do not now maintain, I think it right, as one of my
    last acts before I quit this Chair, thus publicly to read my recantation. .
    .
                    "There is, I think, one great negative conclusion now incontestably
    established - that the vast masses of diluvial gravel, scattered almost over
    the surface of the earth, do not belong to one violent and transitory
    period. . .
            "We ought, indeed, to have paused before we first adopted the diluvian
    theory, and referred all our old superficial gravel to the action of the
    Mosaic Flood. . . . In classing together distant unknown formations under
    one name; in giving them a simultaneous origin, and in determining their
    date, not by the organic remains we had discovered, but by those we expected
    hypothetically hereafter to discover, in them; we have given one more
    example of the passion with which the mind fastens upon general conclusions
    and of the readiness with which it leaves the consideration of unconnected
    truths."" Sedgwick cited by Stephen J. Gould, The Freezing of Noah, The
    Flamingo's Smile, (New York: W. W. Norton, 1985), p. 125.

    Buckland, Sedgwick's mentor and the last world-famous geologist who
    supported the world-wide Noachian deluge rejected it in 1936.

    "The granddaddy of flood theories (and the one now embraced so
    anachronistically by creationists) had been kicking around for several
    centuries the idea that a single flood had produced all, or nearly all, the
    geological strata. This version was no longer credible by Buckland's time,
    and he dismissed it in a single paragraph written in 1836 and still quite
    sufficient to refute what our moral majoritarians tried to impose upon the
    children of Arkansas:
              'Some have attempted to ascribe the formation of all the
    stratified rocks to the effects of the Mosaic Deluge; an opinion which is
    irreconcilable with the enormous thickness and almost infinite subdivisions
    of these strata, and with numerous and regular successions which they
    contain of the remains of animals and vegetables, differing more and more
    widely from existing species, as the strata in which we find them are older
    or placed at greater depths." ~ Stephen J. Gould, The Flamingo's Smile, (New
    York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1985), p. 115

    Yet, in spite of this, Penn continued, along with many others to propagate
    geological and scientific nonsense in support of the Bible. And this
    tradition continues to this very day.

    To begin with we will examine the issue of arrogance as illustrated in the
    writings of Penn and then modern apologists. Granville Penn was extremely
    egotistical. He wrote _Conversations on Geology_ in the style of a dialogue
    and used Mrs. R. to describe not only Penn's theories, but Penn himself.
    Some of the things Penn has Mrs. R. say about him would make anyone blush.
    An example:

    *********Passage********
    “Edward

            “I confess, however, that I should not like to give up some of the
    geological opinions which I have already imbibed.

    Mrs. R.

            “That is exactly the feeling which so often prevents the abolition of error
    and the establishment of truth.—But lets see how Mr. Penn proceeds as the
    ‘architect of ruin,’ as Burke might perhaps have called him.

    Christina

            “If he is fond of ruins, I have no doubt that I shall like him.

    "Mrs. R.

            He is at least an enthusiast for his system and that seldom fails to rivet
    attention. He makes no distinction between Wernerians and Huttonians but
    calls all previous geologists Mineral Geologists in contradistinction to
    himself, the MOSAIC GEOLOGIST.” Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology,
    (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p. 246-247
    **
    "Mrs. R.
            Till within a few years, these two have been the prevailing systems
    [Huttonian and Wernerian geology--grm]; but another has lately appeared
    which seems likely, I think, to supersede them: It is called by Mr.
    Granville Penn, who is its great champion, the MOSAIC GEOLOGY, because it is
    chiefly derived from the Mosaic History of the Creation and the Deluge."
    Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son,
    1840), p. 38

    and

    "Mrs. R.

            Not at all, so long as the Mosaic Geology can find such advocates as Mr.
    Penn, who is extensively acquainted with the facts and theories of modern
    Mineral Geologists, as he calls all those who are not his own disciples. I
    am certain you will be pleased with his system; for it is no less ingenious
    than probable, and will give you much more sublime views of the creation
    than are to be found in the inspired poem of Milton; and that is saying a
    great deal." Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W.
    Southgate and Son, 1840), p. 38

    ***********GRM comments********************

    What arrogance to write these things about oneself! But then those who
    think that everyone else is wrong save themselves must by definition be
    arrogant. But modern apologists engage in a form of arrogance for their
    movement rather than blowing their own horn as did Penn. Rob Koons, in one
    of the most overblown statements about a modern apologist wrote:

    "Dembski is the Isaac Newton of information theory, and since this is the
    Age of Information, that makes Dembski one of the most important thinkers of
    our time. His 'law of conservation of information' represents a
    revolutionary breakthrough. In Intelligent Design Dembski explains the
    meaning and significane of his discoveries with such clarity that the
    general public can readily grasp them. he convincingly diagnoses our present
    confusions about the relationship between science and theology and offers a
    promising alternative."

     ROB KOONS, associate professor of philosophy, University of Texas"
    http://www.gospelcom.net/ivpress/title/rev/1581.html
    see also www.apologetics.org/news/ink1.html

    Not bad press for a man who, by the admission of Stephen Meyer, got the
    definitiion of complexity backwards in his PSCF article. But even Phillip
    Johnson has grandiose views of the importance of his movement. He wrote:

    "Dembski is one of the most important of the "design" theorists who are
    sparking a scientific revolution by legitimating the concept of intelligent
    design in science. At some point not far in the future, scientists will be
    saying "of course biological organisms are intelligently designed," and "of
    course neo-Darwinism was never more than a pseudoscientific philosophical
    ideology like Freudianism and Marxism." When that happens, William Dembski
    will deserve a lot of the credit.

    Phillip E. Johnson,
    professor of law, University of California at Berkeley,
    author of Darwin on Trial"
    http://www.leaderu.com/offices/dembski/docs/bd-dibook.html

    Scientific revolutions are very rare and it is highly, highly dubious that
    an actual revolution is being generated by Dembski. Don Boys illustrates
    this arrogance by noting how his opponents cling to their wrong ideas:

    "Evolutionists would rather cling to a fairy tale than rest on a fact. The
    gaps are filled with guesses. There is nothing I repeat nothing to link man
    to the apes. And it's also true of other creatures." ~ Don Boys, Evolution:
    Fact,Fraud or Faith, (Largo: Freedom Publications, 1994), p. 131-132

    All of these statements show an arrogance that is different only in form
    from that of Penn.

    And Penn is the earliest writer I know of who uses the presuppositional
    approach to rejecting modern science. This is the approach in which one
    denies critical assumptions in order to reject what modern science says.
    Penn writes:

    ********Penn's Passage**********

    “Edward

            “But might not God create the world in a state of chaos, and after imposing
    upon it the laws of chemical affinity, leave these to operate in the same
    way they now do?

    Mrs. R.

            “The conjecture is plausible enough, but such fancies are not good
    philosophy. Newton himself sometimes indulged perhaps too much in similar
    suppositions, as when he talked of some kind of ether as the cause of
    gravity, and when he said, ‘if the earth were formed of a uniformly yielding
    substance, and if it were to become deprived of its motion, it would settle
    into a perfect sphere.’ The Mineral Geologists, without thinking of Newton’s
    ‘if,’ state this as the fact.”Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology,
    (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p.248-249

    ***********GRM Comments**************

    GRM:Notice the denial of the assumption to avoid the conclusion. Modern
    young-earth creationists use this technique with radioactive dating. Gish
    writes:

    "Not only is there no way to verify the validity of these assumptions, but
    inherent in these assumptions are factors that assure that the ages so
    derived, whether accurate or not, will always range in the millions to
    billions of years (excluding the carbon?14 method, which is useful for
    dating samples only a few thousand years old.)." ~ Duane Gish, Evolution:
    The Challenge of the Fossil Record, (El Cajon: Creation?Life Publishers,
    1985), p. 51

    GRM: Also note the similarity in the way an evolutionary universe is
    rejected between Mrs. R.'s response above and what moderns do in saying it
    isn't good philosophy. Johnson wrote:

    "To the extent that evolutionary scientists claim that unintelligent
    material forces were sufficient to produce plants and animals, I think their
    belief is based more upon naturalistic philosophy than upon empirical
    evidence."
    http://www.arn.org/docs/johnson/aaup.htm

    *********Penn's passage continues:

    "Edward

    “Their error appears to be in not carrying their analysis beyond
    particulars, while Newton proceeds step by step, till he arrives at the
    grand cause, an INTELLIGENT CREATOR.”

    Mrs. R.

    “This is indeed the origin of their error; and Mr. Penn, therefore, ranks
    them among the philosophers who, as Lord Bacon says, impede knowledge, ‘by
    slipping off particular sciences from the root and stock of universal
    knowledge.’ De Luc, whom I have so often mentioned, was aware that the
    Mineral Geology did not agree with the Grand Newtonian principle of
    referring to the Creator, and he makes the singular apology that the term
    creation is physically unintelligible. To me, however, it is quite as
    intelligible as the term chaos.
    Granville Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son,
    1840), p.249

    ***********GRM comments**************
    It is interesting that even modern apologists make this tiresome claim that
    their opponents are suppressing information or impeding knowledge. Phillip
    Johnson writes:

            "If laboratory science cannot establish a mechanism, and if fossil studies
    cannot find the common ancestors and transitional links then Darwinism fails
    as an empirical theory. But Darwinists suppress consideration of that
    possibility by invoking a distinction between the 'fact' of evolution and
    Darwin's particular theory." ~ Phillip E. Johnson, Darwin on Trial, (Downers
    Grove: Intervarsity Press, 1993), p. 66

    And Steidl writes:

    Speaking of the Scientists belief in old Universe
    "In fact, they will never give it up, even if it means compromising their
    reason or even their professional integrity, for to admit creation is to
    admit the existence of the God of the Bible. This is exactly what the world
    system will not do." ~ Paul Steidl, The Earth, The Stars, and the Bible,
    (Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1979),
    p. 94

    Nothing changes in 160 years.

    Penn is the earliest writer I know of to use the appearance of age
    argument. A guy named Saussure might have used it earlier but I don't have
    his work. He writes in an extended passage concerning the appearance of age:
    [this quote is immediately following the one above--grm-]

    ************Penn's passage*********************
    “Edward

    “If I rightly understand your sketch of Mr. Penn’s views, he thinks that the
    whole globe was created in the same way as plants and animals.

    Mrs. R.

    “Precisely so: for if, with Newton, we refer similar appearances to similar
    causes, we must conclude that the three great classes of animals, vegetables
    and minerals, have a community of system, the earth being fitted to support
    the two firstm and they again being necessarily dependent on the earth. They
    are, therefore, constituent parts of one whole, and the first formations of
    each must accordingly be referred to the same cause and to the same mode.”

    Edward

    “That is, I suppose, if we can prove one of these to have been created
    immediately by God, it will follow that the others, also, have been formed
    in the same way.

    Mrs. R.

    “Such is Mr. Penn’s argument, and it appears to be incontrovertible. He goes
    on to support it by proving the individual creation of animals and plants.

    Edward

    “He might have taken it for granted, I think; as it is not, so far as I
    know, denied by any body.

    Mrs. R.

    “You will, however, see his application more strikingly, from his ingenious
    mode of proof. If we trace back, then, the generations of men, we shall
    ultimately arrive at a first man, or parent of all; and, though it will not
    alter the force of the argument whether this first man was created in a
    state of infancy, boyhood, or manhood, it is most probably that he was
    formed mature, with a bodily structure similar to our own, having his soft
    flesh supported and strengthened by means of bones. The first inquiry,
    therefore, will be, what is the use and the formation of bone?

    Edward
    “I confess, I cannot perceive how this is to bear upon Geology.

    Mrs. R.

    “You shall soon see that; but you must allow me to develop the argument. The
    use of the bones we are told by anatomists, is to give shape and firmness to
    the body, to serve as levers for the muscles, and, in the case of the ribs,
    to protect the heart and the lungs, while the bones of the skull protect the
    brain. But, when first formed, bones are very soft and pulpy, as is seen by
    examining the chick in an egg during the progress of hatching; and it is
    only by degrees that the bones become perfectly hard.”

    Edward

            “I have often remarked this at table, in lamb and veal, in which the bones
    were soft and gristly.

    Mrs. R.

            “This gradual hardening is the process of the formation of bone at present,
    but we must not thence conclude that the bones of the first man were at
    first soft, and then gradually became hard; for he was at once created
    perfect. Yet, were a bone of the first man now remaining and given to an
    anatomist, he could not probably tell, from its appearance, that it had not
    been formed like other bones, just as the Mineral Geologist infers from the
    rocks which now exist, that they have been precipitated and crystallized
    from the waters of chaos, or ejected from the bowels of the earth, melted by
    fire.”

    Edward

            “Ah! I now perceive the ingenuity of the argument: the conclusion of the
    anatomist, that the bone of the first man had at first been soft, and had
    become gradually firm and hard, would be wrong because it was at first
    created hard; and and the conclusion of the Mineral Geologist is,
    therefore, equally erroneous, who says, that the rocks which are now hard
    and solid, were formerly dissolved in the ocean, or melted by heat.”

    Mrs. R.

            “This is the reasoning which goes to prove that in such cases we cannot
    make just inferences from what we actually see, without taking other
    circumstances into account. Mr. Penn applies the same mode of reasoning to
    the first tree as he has applied to the first man; and, as every tree
    consists of a root, trunk, and branches, composed of wood, his first inquiry
    is, what is wood?

    Edward

            “The answer to this must obviously be, that wood is a solid substance,
    which gives strength and support to trees, as bones do to the bodies of
    animals.

    Mrs. R.

            “Yes: but you have omitted the most important circumstance; for wood is at
    first soft and herbaceous, as you may have remarked in the young shoots of a
    rose-tree, and only become slowly and gradually hard and solid by a
    progressive course; but, in the the wood of the first tree, the wood could
    not have gone through this gradual process of hardening, for it must have
    been formed so at once and suddenly. Now, if a portion of this first tree
    remained at present, and if a chip of its wood were to be mingled with chips
    of other trees, that have been propagated from seed or suckers, the
    naturalist would not be able to perceive by inspection that it had not
    proceeded gradually and slowly from a soft to a hard state, in the same way
    as the Mineral Geologist can see nothing in rocks but crystals, which have
    arisen from solutions, or fusions of mineral matter by water or by fire.”

    Edward

            “And, of course, on the same principles as before, the inference of the
    naturalist would, like that of the anatomist, be false; inasmuch as the real
    mode of the first formation of trees, like that of bones was in direct
    contradiction to the present indication of their appearance.”

    Mrs. R.

            “Let us now consider the first created rock, as we have considered the
    first created bone and the first created wood. Rocks are, by the Mineral
    Geologists, looked upon as the first and most solid bones of this globe,
    forming, in some measure, the skeleton, and, as it were, the rough framework
    of the earth. They are also said to be stamped with the character of a
    formation altogether crystalline, as if they were really the product of a
    tranquil precipitation; though the sensible appearances of rocks which
    suggest crystallization to the Wernerian and petrifaction to the Huttonian,
    are exactly of the same authority with those which suggest the preceding
    erroneous conclusions respecting bones and wood, and, it may be added, the
    erroneous conclusions of the peasant who, from sensible appearances, infers
    that the sun actually sets at night in the ocean, and again in the morning
    rises over the hills.

    Edward

            “But, if Mr. Penn’s reasoning be just, I cannot perceive how we are to
    explain the regularity of the beds in which we now find rocks disposed.

    Mrs. R.

            “Just in the same way as you explain the regularity of the plates in the
    shell of the first tortoise, or the regular successive compartments in the
    pulp of the first orange.

    Edward

            “But the diversified colours and structures of granite, sandstone, and
    basalt, will scarcely be accounted for on a similar principle.

    Mrs. R.

            “Why? These are not more different from each other than the wool of the
    first sheep, the hair of the first dog, and the fur of the first squirrel;
    and, when the Mineral Geologist can tell Mr. Penn why and how the skin of
    the first lion was plain, the skin of the first tiger striped, and the skin
    of the first leopard spotted, then will he tell him how and why marble
    differs from sandstone, and chalk from flint; and how and why chalk is
    white, basalt black, and rock-crystal transparent.

    Edward

            “That, however, is not an answer, but a confession of inability to answer.

    Mrs. R.

            “The author concludes from the argument, that rocks were not formed by
    diposition nor melting, but at once by the fiat of the great-Creator, in the
    same way as animals and plants were formed; and, from the record of Moses,
    he infers that, at their first formation, the rocks were wholly covered with
    water, though not the fanciful chaotic ocean, but the salt waters of the
    sea. It is here that the record, he thinks, triumphs over the pure
    supposition of the theorist, who, though he confesses his ignorance,
    continues to flounder on through the muddy waters of conjecture.”Granville
    Penn, Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p.
    249-256

    **********GRM comments*********

     Note how similar this modern example is to the argument that Penn
    presented. This one is presented by John Mark Reynolds, one of the
    peripheral ID proponents. He writes:

    "If God, for example, created with the appearance of age or history, then
    how could a human being ever discover this fact? The age of the cosmos has
    great theological and metaphysical implications and yet that is the very
    sort of question that science can never answer with certainty."~ John Mark
    Reynolds, "The Bible and Science: Toward a Rational Harmonization," in
    Robert T. Walsh, editor, The Third International Conference on Creationism,
    (Pittsburgh: Creation Science Fellowship, 1994), p. 453

    Or John Morris:

            "God knew that this superficial appearance of history could be
    misunderstood by those not having access to the originally created state, or
    not having the patience to study it, and so He told us in His Word when this
    was accomplished. Today, some scientists, attempting to discern the age of
    things, deny the possibility of Creation, and having denied truth, come to a
    wrong conclusion. If one denies this possibility of a functionally mature
    Creation, he or she will perhaps mistake that functional maturity for age."
    ~ John Morris, The Young Earth, (Colorado Springs: Master Books, 1994), p.
    42

    Or this from Henry Morris who says:

    "There is no intrinsic reason why these dramatic increases in brightness
    have to be interpreted as taking place in the stars rather than in the
    streams of photons leading from the stars." ~ Henry M. Morris, Biblical
    Basis for Modern Science, (Grand Rapids: Baker Bookhouse, 1984), p. 176

    In other words, science can't tell the difference between age and the
    apearance of age even if we examine the phenomenon. This is exactly what
    Penn was saying. In 160 years, this argument hasn't changed at all and
    indeed is nothing more than an escape mechanism to avoid the impact of
    observational data.

    Penn also is the earliest person after Geology's rejection of the deluge of
    whom I know who argued that all the geological strata are due to the
    Deluge. He wrote (note also the arrogance of Penn complimenting himself):

    *********Penn passage***********

    “Edward

            “To me the arguments appear very ingenious, and so far just; but, if I may
    be permitted to say so, they do not prove enough; for, though they account
    for the regularity of rocks and diversity of colour and structure, they do
    not explain the convulsions which we have been considering, that have, in so
    many places, left the rocks shattered and in ruins.”

    Mrs. R.

            “Mr. Penn, who is a pupil of the celebrated Saussure, is too good a
    Geologist, and has been too long among the Alps and Pyrennees, to omit this
    important point; but he explains it from the Mosaic record, and not from a
    fancied succession of deluges, as the Wernerians do.”

    Edward
            “I do not recollect any passage in Genesis which mentions the convulsions
    or breaking-up of rocks.

    Mrs. R.

            “Nor is there any, perhaps, which directly mentions it. But Mr. Penn says,
    that though the earth was created on the first day, it was ‘invisible and
    unfurnished,’ not ‘without forms and void,’ as our translation has it; and
    the sea continued to cover the rocks till the third day, when God said, ‘Let
    the waters under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the
    dry land appear,’ and it was so. From this he very plausibly infers, that
    to provide a basin for the waters, in order to collect them into one place,
    a violent disruption and deepening of the solid crust of the earth must have
    taken place, and its solid framework burst, fractured, and subverted in all
    those parts where depression was required to produce the deep bed of the
    ocean. As this first revolution of the earth happened before the creation of
    plants and animals, it explains the circumstance of none of their remains
    being now found in the rocks called primitive.”

    Edward

            “This is, indeed, very ingenious and plausible; but I am disappointed in
    not having a more distinct account of it in the record.

    Mrs. R.

            “Even this Mr. Penn has discovered, in a beautiful passage in the hundred
    and fourth Psalm, which, for anything known to the contrary, may have been
    written by Moses. Christian will favour us by reading what I have marked.”

    Christina

            “’Who laid the foundations of the earth that it should not be moved. Thou
    coverest it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the
    mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; as the voice of thy thunder they hasted
    away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys into the
    PLACE which thous hast formed for them. Thou didst set a bound that they may
    not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.”

    Mrs. R.

            “Now it appears from this sublime history—from the ‘rebuke’ and the
    ‘thunder,’ that it was a crisis of stupendous and terrible convulsion, when
    the waters of the sea were fixed in their channel, and the dry land and its
    mountains elevated above the level of the great deep.”

    Edward

            “I am completely satisfied with this explanation; but there are many points
    of Geology which we formerly considered, which it will not account for the
    existence, for instance, of conglomerate rocks evidently formed from others,
    and the remarkable facts which you told us of large trees, inclosed in
    sandstone quarries, converted into coal.”

    Mrs. R.

            “All these, and similar appearance, Mr. Penn explains by the second grand
    revolution—the Deluge of Noah and the circumstances which preceded it, from
    the creation onwards. It is important to recollect, that the period from the
    creation to the deluge was more than sixteen hundred and fifty years, and,
    during that time, it is obvious that immense beds of shells would be formed
    in the sea, and not only so, but very probably would afterwards be covered
    with beds of sand, clay, and mud, and cemented together by the glutinous
    matter of the animals themselves. Similar circumstances would also tend to
    cover, with extensive deposits, the moss-beds of sea-weed, corals, sponges,
    and other marine productions then existing. It is, also to be remarked, that
    the constant tides and storms of the sea, as we formerly noticed, would tend
    to wear down the rock exposed to their warfare, and thence would form
    immense beds of sand, gravel, and clay, all of which would, of course, exist
    in the bed of the ocean at the time of the deluge.”

    Edward
            “This appears, however, to be little more than a version of Dr. Hutton’s
    system.

    Mrs. R.

            “The account of the Deluge you will find to be very different from any
    system; for Mr. Penn is no less original than simple.”

    Edward

            “I scarcely conceive how he can say anything new upon that subject, if he
    adhere to the history.

    Mr. R.

            “You shall judge better of that when you hear his account. All the recent
    Geologists agree, that the immense beds of sand, clay, and gravel now
    covering the earth’s surface have been formed in the bosom of a tranquil
    water, and have been exposed by its retreat or removal. Now, Mr. Penn finds
    it recorded by Moses, that the former earth was altogether destroyed, and a
    new earth raised from the bottom of the former sea. The record states, that,
    in consequence of the wickedness of man being great, God resolved to destroy
    ’ man and beast,’—‘all flesh, together with the earth,’ excepting only Noah
    and his family and a select number of animals.”

    Edward

            “I never remarked the words, ‘together with the earth,’ before, though they
    seem to be so important.

    Mrs. R.

            “All previous Geologists have overlooked them in the same culpable manner;
    but St. Peter was well aware of the force of the passage when he says
    expressly, ‘the world which then was, perished, being overflowed with water;
    and Job also says the earth’s foundations ‘were destroyed by a flood of
    water;’ and, in another place, ‘he sendeth forth his waters and they destroy
    the earth.’ What is no less conclusive, is the promise given after the
    Deluge,--‘Neither shall there be any more a flood to destroy the earth.’

    Edward

            “He infers, therefore, I suppose, from all this, that a second earth was
    produced at the Deluge after the first was destroyed.”

    Mrs. R.

            “Yes; and that it was upon the mountains of the new earth that the ark
    rested. It will also follow that, if the first earth was formed (as we have
    seen it was), by the breaking up of the first created rocks, in order to
    form a basin for the retreat of the waters, it is highly probable that the
    second earth, on which we now live, was formed in the same manner by
    elevating the basin of the first sea, or by depressing and breaking up the
    crust of the first land. The earth, therefore, which we now inhabit,
    constituted the bed of the ocean for sixteen hundred and fifty years, and
    was also washed by the waters of the Deluge for nearly one year. These two
    circumstances will account well for the immense beds of marine shells found
    both in the soil and in rocks, in all parts of the world hitherto
    explored, --a circumstance which has induced Geologists, of the most
    opposite opinions on other points, to agree unanimously that the present
    land was formerly covered by the sea.

    Edward

            “This, indeed, will solve my problem about the existence of shells in
    rocks; but I understood you to say before that the Wernerians refer many
    phenomena to the Deluge.

    Mrs. R.

            “But not at all on Mr. Penn’s view of the event, as I have now stated it;
    for it was never imagined that the former antediluvian land was now the bed
    of the ocean, and our land its former channel. It was only said that the
    water of the Deluge, by washing over our land, had produced the great masses
    of shells and gravel which we now find through the space of twelve months
    was probably too small for producing such an effect.”

    Edward

            “There is not, however, I suppose, any passage in the Mosaic record which
    mentions the disruption of the rocks.

    Mrs. R.

            “Yes: it is said expressly, ‘all the fountains of the great deep were
    broken up;’ and, when the waters were assuaged, the same ‘fountains’ were
    ‘stopped.’ In corroboration of this, there is the ample evidence of the
    present appearance of rocks precipices, and mountains, which, I need not
    tell you, exhibit every where the marks of convulsion and ruin,--vast
    ravines bounded by fractured walls—Alpine pyramids of granite, with their
    summits rent and ruined—the whole face of a country covered with gravel and
    soil and huge blocks of stone, which have been detached from their native
    rocks, and worn smooth by water, --all most eloquent witnesses of the great
    catastrophe.”

    Edward

            “From the same conclusion it will follow, I presume, that the Garden of
    Eden is now overflowed by the ocean: and, therefore, it would be in vain to
    seek for it on our present land.

    Mrs. R.

            “This is one of Mr. Penn’s inferences, and he fortifies it with some
    curious and ingenious criticism, some of which, however, I do not pretend to
    understand; but the best part of his system, is the simple and natural
    account which he gives of shells, and of the bones of animals, which are now
    so abundantly found in rocks and buried in the soil of many parts of the
    world, though, as this is both an extensive and interesting subject, it will
    be better, I think, to reserve it for your next lesson.” Granville Penn,
    Conversations on Geology, (London: J. W. Southgate and Son, 1840), p.
    256-263

    *******GRM comments********

     Penn's view that the oceans and continents changed places, presaged
    Rehwinkle's similar(but not identical) view of the flood.

    "If all the deeper parts of the ocean were filled up by materials to a mean
    depth, and all of the higher elevations on land would be planed down to an
    average level, a universal ocean covering the entire earth to a depth of one
    and a half miles would result. Surely the objection that there was not
    enough water on the earth to produce the Flood, therefore, cannot stand, nor
    would anyone seriously contend that the omnipotent God and Creator of the
    universe lacked the physical means by which such a deluge could have been
    brought upon the earth."Alfred M. Rehwinkle, THE FLOOD, (St. Louis:
    Concordia, 1950), p.124.

    Penn also holds to the rigid 1656 years between creation and flood as do
    modern young-earth creationists. And to include my own views in this
    critical assessment, Penn's view that Eden is now on the bottom of the ocean
    presages my view that it is on the bottom of the Mediterranean. Having
    criticized others for not changing, fairness requires that I must include
    myself on this point. And frankly, to have anything in common with Penn is a
    blow to the ego!

    One can see that little has changed in over 160 years. I would say that this
    is evidence of the intellectual stagnation of Christian apologetics.

    glenn

    see http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/dmd.htm
    for lots of creation/evolution information



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