RE: When the Magi visited Nazareth...(was Re: [asa] Gospel in the Stars WAS Star of Bethlehem presentation?)

Michael said:
" Good point Pete. Fundamentalism with associated YEC is a great recipe for
developing unbelief. "

The kind of explanations Murray gave are the ones I'm complaining about. According to that, you must think Pastor Murray is a 'fundamentalist?'

RE: "Third gospel" sort of explanations and other scripture twisting, rather than accepting the story as it is and digging deeper in Midrash, history, etc. to understand.

Now you probably don't think Murray is a fundamentalist. I don't think I was either. But for some reason, some try to brush this off as a problem with fundamentalism. Pete, I think you should know better from personal experience, as you should know about the LACK of personal freedom in most Christian seminaries first-hand. And they are not 'fundamentalist.' Unless your 'fundamentalist' term is much more broad sweeping than I think that of most others. Unless maybe you think most evangelicals are 'fundamentalist.' I guess it depends on where you come from. Someone from the far left will call more people on the right 'fundamentalist,' whereas a centrist wouldn't call so many people 'fundamentalist.'

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:31 PM
To: Pete Enns; Dehler, Bernie
Cc: ASA
Subject: Re: When the Magi visited Nazareth...(was Re: [asa] Gospel in the Stars WAS Star of Bethlehem presentation?)

Good point Pete. Fundamentalism with associated YEC is a great recipe for
developing unbelief. This is why churches which allow some latitude are so
much healthier

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Enns" <peteenns@mac.com>
To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: When the Magi visited Nazareth...(was Re: [asa] Gospel in the
Stars WAS Star of Bethlehem presentation?)

> Bernie, trust me: your church experience was strongly fundamentalist. If
> that were my only church experience I'd be where you are. Thankfully, the
> history of the church shows fundamentalism (and a lot of evangelicalism)
> to be somewhat parenthetical. I think it is a good idea if you did not
> argue against Xty on the basis of a fundamentalist paradigm.
>
> Pete
>
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>
>> Murray- in my opinion, that is a superb example of twisting the
>> Scripture, rather than accepting it for what it is.
>>
>> Pete- This is the kind of stuff that is not new to me. And this is the
>> kind of stuff that most Pastors pettle in the churches, from my
>> experience. That's why I appreciate your insight (and other scholars,
>> like Bart Ehrman) in dealing with the passage more honestly, in my
>> opinion.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:15 PM
>> To: ASA
>> Subject: When the Magi visited Nazareth...(was Re: [asa] Gospel in the
>> Stars WAS Star of Bethlehem presentation?)
>>
>> Sorry all for exceeding my post count yet again but you should find this
>> one good fun! :-[
>>
>> Dave Wallace wrote:
>>> I doubt it even contains discussion of whether or not Jesus and his
>>> parents went to Nazareth and then Egypt or in the other order.
>>> Scripture is not an exhaustive history by any means and the authors
>>> had different audiences they were writing for. Frankly I don't think
>>> the order matters at all. Maybe Pete or Murray have a different
>>> opinion.
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> First, I have to say that questions of this sort are not really of that
>> much interest to me. Frankly, I know the NT scholarship pretty well and
>> I have to say that the discussion so far hasn't even scratched the
>> surface of the difficulties. There's lots more "problems" than the
>> question of chronology and I've already factored most of those into my
>> understanding of the nature and role of scripture.
>>
>> But that said, there is one commonly overlooked solution to this
>> supposed "problem";
>>
>> Very early in Christian history (c. 160-70 AD) a guy by the name of
>> Tatian put together a harmony of the Four Gospels known as "The
>> Diatessaron of Tatian."
>>
>> In his harmony, Tatian places the return to Nazareth BEFORE the visit of
>> the Magi. Which seems kinda strange until we realize that - contrary to
>> the assumption that most people read into the text - Matthew never
>> actually states that the Magi visit Bethlehem!
>>
>> What it DOES say is (1) Jesus was born in Bethlehem, (2) Herod's
>> religious advisers told him Bethlehem would be Christ's birth place; (3)
>> Herod directs the Magi to Bethlehem; and (4) the Magi follow the star to
>> where Jesus was.
>>
>> But it DOESN'T say that Jesus was in Bethlehem OR that the Magi visited
>> there.
>>
>> So if we follow Tatian's ordering;
>>
>> Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem where Christ is born
>> The Holy Family visits Jerusalem for the rites of purification
>> They return to Nazareth
>> The Magi visit the Holy Family *in Nazareth*
>> The Holy Family flees to Egypt
>> Herod's henchmen massacre the children of Bethlehem
>>
>> It turns out that there isn't even a problem to be addressed - unless
>> you want to read into the Gospel narrative something that isn't actually
>> there!
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Murray.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Thu Nov 26 12:19:42 2009