Re: [asa] Non-natural? (Was: Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....)

Whatever...

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> " "Technology is 'not natural'""
>
> How do you figure? It is made by humans, which are natural.
>
> Animals also use tools. Is their 'technology' also 'not natural?'
>
> " Simply put, Greg is working with three categories;
> natural
> human
> supernatural"
>
> Why can't 'human' be 'natural?'
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:15 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] Non-natural? (Was: Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....)
>
> Simply put, Greg is working with three categories;
>
> natural
> human
> supernatural
>
> He actually made the human - natural distinction pretty clear in the post you just responded to.
>
> As for an example of something "not supernatural yet not natural", again, from the post you just responded to;
>
> "Technology is 'not natural'"
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> "To repeat an obvious point: 'non-natural' does *not* necessarily equate
>> with 'supernatural.'"
>>
>>
>>
>> I never got an answer- what is an example of something "not supernatural
>> yet non-natural" ???
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>> *On Behalf Of *Gregory Arago
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:32 AM
>> *To:* John Walley; Cameron Wybrow; asa
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....
>>
>>
>>
>> Cameron wrote:
>>
>> "if we are to speak of chips on shoulders, I would say that there are
>> quite a number of people in this group who have a chip on their shoulder
>> -- about YECs -- that is as big as the rock of Gibraltar. The attitude
>> towards YEC here borders on the obsessive."
>>
>>
>>
>> Amen! And a clear example of the creation vs. evolution argument of the
>> 20th century being dragged into the 21st. Let's marshall some support to
>> put this obsessiveness behind us...
>>
>> John W. wrote:
>>
>> "we have no scientific basis for detecting design outside of nature."
>>
>> Yes, we do. Human beings 'detect design' on a daily basis. Technology is
>> 'not natural'; it is a human-made thing that did not 'evolve' (but
>> surely it did and does 'change'). Technology is, with a logical
>> scientific or philosophical perspective, 'outside of nature.' Yet you,
>> John, reject that any 'X-ology' that studies *anything* 'outside of
>> nature' could possibly be called 'science.' This is a problem for your
>> position, which you apparently are not prepared to acknowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> To repeat an obvious point: 'non-natural' does *not* necessarily equate
>> with 'supernatural.'
>>
>>
>>
>> Gregory
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
>> *To:* Cameron Wybrow <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>; asa <asa@calvin.edu>
>> *Sent:* Wed, October 14, 2009 2:50:12 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....
>>
>> " Designed objects, if they exist, are not something outside of our
>> experience, up in some supernatural world; they reside in our empirical
>> world. Even if the source of their design lies outside of nature, the
>> design embodied in them does not. You still seem to me to be confusing
>> "supernatural intervention" and "design"."
>>
>> No I think it is valid to say that we have no scientific basis for
>> detecting design outside of nature. You cannot say that supernaturally
>> sourced design does not exist outside of nature.
>>
>> On one hand I can sympathize with this conclusion because I agree
>> detecting design at least within nature is obvious and intuitive, but
>> once we consider supernatural design then we have no basis on which to
>> evaluate it. As I have said many times, I am happy to admit this
>> conclusion may be logical and rational, but it is just not scientific.
>> Granted the atheists take advantage of this but I think we have to give
>> them that. I dont believe God has given us the abilty to know him
>> scientifically, it is a much more subjective knowing that resists us
>> using it to "prove" Him to others. That is what you are trying to do
>> with your design argument.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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Received on Wed Oct 14 16:47:59 2009