RE: [asa] Non-natural? (Was: Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....)

" "Technology is 'not natural'""

How do you figure? It is made by humans, which are natural.

Animals also use tools. Is their 'technology' also 'not natural?'

" Simply put, Greg is working with three categories;
natural
human
supernatural"

Why can't 'human' be 'natural?'

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:15 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Non-natural? (Was: Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....)

Simply put, Greg is working with three categories;

natural
human
supernatural

He actually made the human - natural distinction pretty clear in the post you just responded to.

As for an example of something "not supernatural yet not natural", again, from the post you just responded to;

"Technology is 'not natural'"

Blessings,
Murray

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> "To repeat an obvious point: 'non-natural' does *not* necessarily equate
> with 'supernatural.'"
>
>
>
> I never got an answer- what is an example of something "not supernatural
> yet non-natural" ???
>
>
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> *On Behalf Of *Gregory Arago
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:32 AM
> *To:* John Walley; Cameron Wybrow; asa
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....
>
>
>
> Cameron wrote:
>
> "if we are to speak of chips on shoulders, I would say that there are
> quite a number of people in this group who have a chip on their shoulder
> -- about YECs -- that is as big as the rock of Gibraltar. The attitude
> towards YEC here borders on the obsessive."
>
>
>
> Amen! And a clear example of the creation vs. evolution argument of the
> 20th century being dragged into the 21st. Let's marshall some support to
> put this obsessiveness behind us...
>
> John W. wrote:
>
> "we have no scientific basis for detecting design outside of nature."
>
> Yes, we do. Human beings 'detect design' on a daily basis. Technology is
> 'not natural'; it is a human-made thing that did not 'evolve' (but
> surely it did and does 'change'). Technology is, with a logical
> scientific or philosophical perspective, 'outside of nature.' Yet you,
> John, reject that any 'X-ology' that studies *anything* 'outside of
> nature' could possibly be called 'science.' This is a problem for your
> position, which you apparently are not prepared to acknowledge.
>
>
>
> To repeat an obvious point: 'non-natural' does *not* necessarily equate
> with 'supernatural.'
>
>
>
> Gregory
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> *To:* Cameron Wybrow <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>; asa <asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Wed, October 14, 2009 2:50:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Atheist finds God thru Behe's books....
>
> " Designed objects, if they exist, are not something outside of our
> experience, up in some supernatural world; they reside in our empirical
> world. Even if the source of their design lies outside of nature, the
> design embodied in them does not. You still seem to me to be confusing
> "supernatural intervention" and "design"."
>
> No I think it is valid to say that we have no scientific basis for
> detecting design outside of nature. You cannot say that supernaturally
> sourced design does not exist outside of nature.
>
> On one hand I can sympathize with this conclusion because I agree
> detecting design at least within nature is obvious and intuitive, but
> once we consider supernatural design then we have no basis on which to
> evaluate it. As I have said many times, I am happy to admit this
> conclusion may be logical and rational, but it is just not scientific.
> Granted the atheists take advantage of this but I think we have to give
> them that. I dont believe God has given us the abilty to know him
> scientifically, it is a much more subjective knowing that resists us
> using it to "prove" Him to others. That is what you are trying to do
> with your design argument.
>
> John
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Received on Wed Oct 14 16:40:58 2009