RE: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins

John W. said:
"In contrast the pagan's only have a me too rationale."

How can pagan's be 'me too' if they came up with the idea before Moses?

The reason is the same for both- a sacrifice of someone pure to appease the wrath of the angry gods.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:08 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins

>2. Maybe the idea is of Satan- but then it looks like God is doing something similar with the sacrifical system

More likely it is Satan doing the copying. The scriptures teach us a rational reason for human sacrifice and in Christ we can see the divine reason as well. In contrast the pagan's only have a me too rationale.

Satan has counterfeits of all God's blessings throughout scripture, it shouldn't surprise you to realize this one more.

John

On Fri Aug 28th, 2009 9:59 PM EDT Dehler, Bernie wrote:

>Murray said:
>"Here the old maxim "similarity does not prove copying" applies. That the ancients widely practice animal sacrifice is recognized. It does not follow that all cultures - or even any culture - practising animal sacrifice borrowed it from elsewhere. All a similarity between the OT/NT and surrounding cultures proves is that there is a similarity."
>
>If there is this similarity, then the question is 'why?'
>
>Take the ancient pagan idea of killing someone to appease the gods to end a drought. 1. Is that of God? 2. Of Satan? 3. Of human imagination? Any other ideas?
>
>1. It can't be of God. Why would the Christian God want pagan's to kill others to appease pagan gods?
>
>2. Maybe the idea is of Satan- but then it looks like God is doing something similar with the sacrifical system... not too unique, and God's method follows the pagan method, as if God saw it and thought it was a good idea so He should command it too?
>
>3. Of human imagination... sounds reasonable... unfortunately, it looks like Dawkins' meme idea for the generation of religion. This would mean the God of the OT/NT is a god made in man's image.
>
>...Bernie
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:39 PM
>To: ASA
>Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins
>
>Hi Bernie,
>
>For what it's worth, your basically putting the same argument as the Religions-geschichtliche (history of religions) scholars of the 20th century.
>
>Currently it's seen as pretty much an ideological a priori which is imposed upon the data - and no longer regarded with much favour by Biblical scholars.
>
>The classic instance in the NT context is Bultmann's treatment of the Gospel of John - arguing that it arose ("evolved") under the influence of Gnosticism - but this all went pear shaped when it was observed that;
>
>1) Bultmann had significantly downplayed the unique Jewish elements of Gospel of John
>
>2) The Gospel of John was authored markedly earlier than Bultmann had allowed
>
>3) Gnosticism never existed in the sort of sense that Bultmann assumed
>
>In short, it is now pretty much recognized that Bultmann tried to force the Gospel of John into an evolutionary mould - and that he did a bit of a hatched job on the data in order to accommodate it to his thesis.
>
>I would caution, then, against being too enthusiastic about trying to do the same with the OT - it might well have "evolved" from earlier materials but some of the most brilliant and dedicated minds in biblical scholarship have failed to decisively prove the thesis.
>
>Here the old maxim "similarity does not prove copying" applies. That the ancients widely practice animal sacrifice is recognized. It does not follow that all cultures - or even any culture - practising animal sacrifice borrowed it from elsewhere.
>
>All a similarity between the OT/NT and surrounding cultures proves is that there is a similarity. Period. It's the exegete who has to provide the evolutionary glue to arrive at an evolutionary conclusion.
>
>Blessings,
>Murray
>
>Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> I don't start with a thesis, but with information, and try to draw a
>> conclusion based on that. Read my information stated below (1 and 2)
>> then conclusion. Summary: I thought OT/NT was unique revelation by
>> God. Then I find out it is not new or unique, but rather evolution of
>> religious ideas. Therefore, likely, ...
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:16 AM
>> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
>> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
>> Brilliant article by Dawkins
>>
>>
>>
>> But your basic thesis is there isn't any God to be appeased. So it
>> doesn't really matter what various cultures did or why. Its all easter
>> bunny to you.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com
>> <mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> wrote:
>>
>> David Clounch said:
>> "So you are saying the atonement sacrifices prior to Moses were real
>> and had meaning and weren't just part of some untrue pagan religion?"
>>
>>
>>
>> What I was thinking is this:
>>
>> 1. Jesus died for our sins. Why is death required?
>> 2. Because it is fulfillment of sacrificial system introduced by
>> Moses from God.
>>
>>
>>
>> Therefore, one might think this was God's unique plan. So, doesn't it
>> weaken (and I think fatally weaken) the whole point to discover that
>> sacrifice for sin was practiced by other cultures prior to Moses (like
>> the idea of 'throw the virgin into the volcano to pacify the angry gods
>> to end the draught')? Same with circumcision.
>>
>>
>>
>> So- what were these ancient near east precursors? That is the fun of
>> reading Sparks' book:
>>
>>
>> "Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The
>> Background Literature."
>> http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com
>> <mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:46 PM
>> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
>> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
>> Brilliant article by Dawkins
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You said:
>>>but there were other ways to sacrifice and atone for sins prior to Moses
>> and Jesus.
>>
>> So you are saying the atonement sacrifices prior to Moses were real
>> and had meaning and weren't just part of some untrue pagan religion?
>>
>> I don't believe you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Dehler, Bernie
>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com <mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Ted said:
>> "... Dawkins -- who, apart from his idea of religion being a "meme"
>> that we "catch" like a virus, hasn't had an original thought about
>> religion in his life."
>>
>> If religion were just a man-made meme, maybe there would be a way to
>> test it. For example, what if it is discovered that there is nothing
>> new (revelatory wise) from the OT or NT? Would that mean that
>> everything about Christianity evolved, since none of it was new?
>>
>> Here are some items to consider:
>> -- Blood atonement
>> -- Eternal life
>>
>> What was revealed from God to man, in the Bible, that other cultures
>> didn't already have? Christ dying on the cross for sins is new, but
>> there were other ways to sacrifice and atone for sins prior to Moses and
>> Jesus.
>>
>> I'm reading about that now in evangelical Christian Prof. Sparks' book
>> "Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The
>> Background Literature."
>> http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268
>>
>> I'm serious- I'd like to know what God revealed that was so unique- I'd
>> like to study that to see if it is true. It could make interesting
>> discussion.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
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Received on Mon Aug 31 17:13:27 2009