RE: [asa] (freewill) Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

Dave said:
"Is what you quote from Genesis God's viewpoint or man's?"

When the text says:
 "So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."

I tend to think the Christian view is that God really said it- it was revealed to the prophet who wrote it. Also, logically, it is the reason for the flood- so if God wasn't grieved, then why send the flood to destroy His creation?

...Bernie

________________________________
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:31 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] (freewill) Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

Bernie,
Is what you quote from Genesis God's viewpoint or man's? It is, so far as creation is concerned, strictly the latter in Genesis 1, for the Creator must have known that up continued indefinitely rather than butting up against the firmament/raquia. What is it in the following chapters? As to the origin of salvation, consider Romans 8:29f and Ephesians 1:4. I'm not about to revise Paul to be able to adopt open theology.
Dave (ASA)

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:43:04 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
Hi Bethany- for the sake of a short email, I'll address just one point.

You said:
"All in all, we need to be careful about definitions: good (value), bad, perfect, good (moral), evil, omniscient, etc. Also, we need to be more careful about the relations we make been things like "pain", "suffering" (I would also add "death") and "evil". "

Yes- so much arguing seems to be over definitions. I guess to best argue, one should specifically make a point and then define what they mean by their words.

Here's a question: Did God know that the fall would happen? If yes, then why did he say the initial creation was good, then later grieve that He had made man (then wiped most of mankind out with a flood, Gen. 6:6)? If not, then why does the Bible say that the plan of salvation was from the beginning- from the creation of the world (Rev. 13:8)?

...Bernie

RE:
Genesis 6:6<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&verse=6&version=31&context=verse>
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Genesis 6:7<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&verse=7&version=31&context=verse>
So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
Revelation 13:8 (New International Version - UK)8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

________________________________
From: Bethany Sollereder [mailto:bsollereder@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:24 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] (freewill) Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

Bernie,

A couple of comments. "Good" does not necessarily mean "perfect". Many philosophers and theologians have argued over this ground, and "good" can also mean "good for the purpose it was intended for", which might mean having freewill and even possibly abusing that freewill. In Irenaeus' view, being "good" meant being destined for a hard-won eventual perfection, which even included the so-called "fall". So, in this line of thinking, evil is not good, but what is good (freewill and the progress towards perfection) will lead a person through all kinds of contingent evil.

2nd point, and this is probably more volatile and periphery than it is worth, but "God is all-knowing" can only mean God knows the future if the future is something that can logically be known. That is precisely the issue over which the open theism debate has been raging. They claim that "omniscience" means "everything that can logically be known", which, they insist, does not in fact include the future.

Finally, there are (especially in biology) times where the very goodness of a thing is found in its badness (not evilness). Think of pain. Our CNS protects us as we amble around precisely because pain is unpleasant and we avoid it. When pain does not hurt (as with congenital insensitivity to pain, or Hansen's disease), it also fails to protect and those who suffer from these conditions do so precisely because they cannot suffer in the normal ways.

All in all, we need to be careful about definitions: good (value), bad, perfect, good (moral), evil, omniscient, etc. Also, we need to be more careful about the relations we make been things like "pain", "suffering" (I would also add "death") and "evil".

Bethany
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> wrote:

David Clounch said:
"Why does a loving God allow suffering and evil? It has to do with free will. He could easily fix it all if only he would override our free will."

God created man with freewill and said it was good. Then the fall happened. Evil can't be because of freewill because God said it was good; unless evil is good, because evil flows from freewill. We know that evil is not good by definition. It is impossible for humans not to sin, because of freewill, so the fall was inevitable. Therefore God designed us knowing that we will sin, if God is all-knowing. Correct?

I think the reason none of this makes sense is because it is 'ancient theology.' It is like trying to make sense of the science or history of the Bible, but it is wrong because it is ancient.

I appreciate any feedback in showing me the error of my logic.

...Bernie

________________________________

From: David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com<mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
Subject: Re: [asa] Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

Consider all the spontaneous abortions (naturally occurring), still births, birth defects, etc. God created all those people specifically to die? I myself had a daughter that died a few moments after birth, due to birth defects. I don't think that was God's direct will (you will likely say His permissive will). And it is not just about my experience- it is multiplied my many times all over the world, even more in undeveloped nations (where even healthy babies and mom's die due to birth complications that could be avoided in the USA). So God made you and has plans for your life... what about all those others who died way too premature? This is not a TE or YEC question, but a question really posed for all Christians to consider... one I struggle with too.

Yes, I agree, the universe sucks. And we all suffer tragedy and wonder why. There is one decision we all have to make: Do we believe God is good in spite of it? That is the million dollar question.

Its not an academic subject by any means. Most people totally avoid deciding this until they experience suffering in their personal lives. And then it is an agonizing thought process.

Why does a loving God allow suffering and evil? It has to do with free will. He could easily fix it all if only he would override our free will.

Fred Heeren's book does a really good job of dealing with this. (Fred is a list member - and he gives me a 25% discount for plugging his book. No he doesn't.).

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Received on Wed Aug 19 11:28:32 2009