Re: [asa] (freewill) Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution

Bernie,
Is what you quote from Genesis God's viewpoint or man's? It is, so far as
creation is concerned, strictly the latter in Genesis 1, for the Creator
must have known that up continued indefinitely rather than butting up
against the firmament/raquia. What is it in the following chapters? As to
the origin of salvation, consider Romans 8:29f and Ephesians 1:4. I'm not
about to revise Paul to be able to adopt open theology.
Dave (ASA)

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:43:04 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
Hi Bethany- for the sake of a short email, I’ll address just one point.
 
You said:
“All in all, we need to be careful about definitions: good (value), bad,
perfect, good (moral), evil, omniscient, etc. Also, we need to be more
careful about the relations we make been things like "pain", "suffering"
(I would also add "death") and "evil". “
 
Yes- so much arguing seems to be over definitions. I guess to best
argue, one should specifically make a point and then define what they
mean by their words.
 
Here’s a question: Did God know that the fall would happen? If yes, then
why did he say the initial creation was good, then later grieve that He
had made man (then wiped most of mankind out with a flood, Gen. 6:6)? If
not, then why does the Bible say that the plan of salvation was from the
beginning- from the creation of the world (Rev. 13:8)?
 
…Bernie
 
RE:
Genesis 6:6
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
Genesis 6:7
So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the
face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the
ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."
Revelation 13:8 (New International Version - UK)8 All inhabitants of the
earth will worship the beast— all whose names have not been written in
the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation
of the world.
 
 

From: Bethany Sollereder [mailto:bsollereder@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:24 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] (freewill)
Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution
 
Bernie,

A couple of comments. "Good" does not necessarily mean "perfect". Many
philosophers and theologians have argued over this ground, and "good" can
also mean "good for the purpose it was intended for", which might mean
having freewill and even possibly abusing that freewill. In Irenaeus'
view, being "good" meant being destined for a hard-won eventual
perfection, which even included the so-called "fall". So, in this line
of thinking, evil is not good, but what is good (freewill and the
progress towards perfection) will lead a person through all kinds of
contingent evil.

2nd point, and this is probably more volatile and periphery than it is
worth, but "God is all-knowing" can only mean God knows the future if the
future is something that can logically be known. That is precisely the
issue over which the open theism debate has been raging. They claim that
"omniscience" means "everything that can logically be known", which, they
insist, does not in fact include the future.

Finally, there are (especially in biology) times where the very goodness
of a thing is found in its badness (not evilness). Think of pain. Our
CNS protects us as we amble around precisely because pain is unpleasant
and we avoid it. When pain does not hurt (as with congenital
insensitivity to pain, or Hansen's disease), it also fails to protect and
those who suffer from these conditions do so precisely because they
cannot suffer in the normal ways.

All in all, we need to be careful about definitions: good (value), bad,
perfect, good (moral), evil, omniscient, etc. Also, we need to be more
careful about the relations we make been things like "pain", "suffering"
(I would also add "death") and "evil".

Bethany
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
wrote:
David Clounch said:
“Why does a loving God allow suffering and evil? It has to do with free
will. He could easily fix it all if only he would override our free
will.”
 
God created man with freewill and said it was good. Then the fall
happened. Evil can’t be because of freewill because God said it was
good; unless evil is good, because evil flows from freewill. We know
that evil is not good by definition. It is impossible for humans not to
sin, because of freewill, so the fall was inevitable. Therefore God
designed us knowing that we will sin, if God is all-knowing. Correct?
 
I think the reason none of this makes sense is because it is ‘ancient
theology.’ It is like trying to make sense of the science or history of
the Bible, but it is wrong because it is ancient.
 
I appreciate any feedback in showing me the error of my logic.
 
…Bernie
 

From: David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa]
Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution
 
 
Consider all the spontaneous abortions (naturally occurring), still
births, birth defects, etc. God created all those people specifically to
die? I myself had a daughter that died a few moments after birth, due to
birth defects. I don’t think that was God’s direct will (you will likely
say His permissive will). And it is not just about my experience- it is
multiplied my many times all over the world, even more in undeveloped
nations (where even healthy babies and mom’s die due to birth
complications that could be avoided in the USA). So God made you and has
plans for your life… what about all those others who died way too
premature? This is not a TE or YEC question, but a question really posed
for all Christians to consider… one I struggle with too.
Yes, I agree, the universe sucks. And we all suffer tragedy and wonder
why. There is one decision we all have to make: Do we believe God is
good in spite of it? That is the million dollar question.

Its not an academic subject by any means. Most people totally avoid
deciding this until they experience suffering in their personal lives.
And then it is an agonizing thought process.

Why does a loving God allow suffering and evil? It has to do with free
will. He could easily fix it all if only he would override our free
will.

Fred Heeren's book does a really good job of dealing with this. (Fred
is a list member - and he gives me a 25% discount for plugging his book.
No he doesn't.).

 
____________________________________________________________
Just drop it. Click here for free information on weight loss surgery!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTF1Ogl6rPvLRLtCzTXlbBhqAAFbbL0JQy88dyHrfIkz8dPV75hO1K/

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Aug 18 22:48:47 2009