Re: [asa] (macroevolution) The term Darwinism

Bernie

As I have been reading the discussion between you and Cameron it seems
to me that there is a definitional problem at the root of the
disagreement. Let me try to define two definitions of evolution:

Evolution I is common descent or descent with modification

Evolution II includes Evolution I as well as the proposed mechanism that
drives Evolution I for example variation and natural selection.

As I see it the evidence from the human/ape genomes and other similar
evidence like fossils..."proves" Evolution I to a fairly high degree of
probability and gives a strong hint about mechanism. To my mind
Evolution I therefore demonstrates that complex biological features
(macroevolution) must have developed in some fashion that is compatible
with common descent. However, that does not bear on what mechanism
caused all biological features to evolve, at least not exhaustively.

As I read Cameron he accepts Evolution I but not necessarily all of
Evolution II when it comes to complex biological features. Cameron
would attribute the mechanism that makes complex features occur to ID.
Behe would be similar.

I hold a similar position except that scientifically I say that the
mechanism that drives the evolution of all complex features is not (
yet?) proven although it might be things like variation and natural
selection. From a religious point of view, I think that it is possible
that God in some special manner intervened to incrementally cause some
or all of the complex features to develop. Possibly God worked through
quantum indeterminacy. I very much like the gardener analogy.

Some Bernie I don't deny that complex biological features evolved in the
Evoluion I sense but I doubt that some of the proposed Evolution II
mechanisms are capable of what is claimed for them. It is not that I
doubt the high probability of factualness of Evolution I but the theory
of Evolution II. I tried to think of a programming/hardware crash
analogy where a given crash symptom may in fact have multiple causes,
but could not quite get the analogy to work totally. Nobody doubts the
fact of the crash but arguments can get heated about various theories of
what the cause was, at least that is true in compilers which was my
field before I retired.

Hope this helps a bit.

Dave W

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> Cameron- That was a long post to a simple question, and you raise additional points.
>
> Cameron:
> " But do you understand the difference between an observed process and an
> inferred one? "
>
> Yes- apparently we agree.
>
> Cameron:
> " Macroevolution, however, is not an observed but an inferred process."
>
> True.
>
> Cameron:
> " Therefore, not only "how it happened" but "that it happened" are debatable
> questions. "
>
> This is where you first went wrong. And you contradict yourself. You said macroevolution was an inferred process, then you said it is debatable if it happened. Get it straight- is it inferred or not?
>
> Cameron said:
> " Further, Further, even granting "that it happened", macroevolutionary
> theory does not merely infer a process but offers a mechanism to explain the
> inferred process, and the two things are intrinsically tied together. macroevolutionary
> theory does not merely infer a process but offers a mechanism to explain the
> inferred process, and the two things are intrinsically tied together."
>
> Now you go further into confusion conflating "did it happen" with "how did it happen." Explaining how it happened will always be REFINED.
>
> Cameron- you are not being straight with me. You are not taking a definite stand. You say " even granting "that it happened",". This is not something to GRANT. It is something to ACCEPT or REJECT. Take a stand. EVERYTHING flows from there. If you accept it, everything changes. In your heart, you have to be clear about whether you accept or reject the modern DNA evidence for evolution of humans from apelike creatures (macroevolution). You sound like you are not taking a firm stand, and if so, it would be like debating a two-faced person.
>
> ...Bernie
>

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Received on Wed Jul 8 16:50:36 2009