Re: Doctrine & practice (was Re: [asa] Fear and Loathing on this list)

I think some of the Pharisees (& I appreciate your cautions against stereotyping
that group so completely as we have) still stood accused of teaching some wrong
ideas. Jesus minces no words on them in Matthew 15 when he accuses them of
putting traditions of men ahead of commandments of God.

"But you say, 'Whoever may tell his father or his mother, "Whatever help you
might otherwise have gotten from me is a gift devoted to God, he shall not honor
his father or mother.' You have made the commandment of God void because of your
tradition. "

Even here though, Jesus seems most scathing about their practice even over their
words, as you pointed out about the Matthew passage.

--Merv

Quoting gmurphy10@neo.rr.com:

> I should have thought of this before but, all other questions aside, it is
> far from clear that Mt.23 is relevant to concerns about discussion criteria
> for this list - for the following reason. In that chapter the charges
> against the scribes and Pharisees have to do not with their _teaching_ but
> with their _pracice_. Verse 3 makes that quite explicit at the start:
> "Therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they
> do, for they do not practice what they teach."
>
> Now most of the excessive language that people have complained about on the
> list has to do with ideas that some consider wrongheaded - e.g., YEC. Wrong
> ideas shouldn't be spared criticism & there are biblical texts that can be
> cited in support of such criticism. But Mt.23 isn't among them.
>
> Shalom,
> George
>
>
>
> ---- Merv Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net> wrote:
> > David Opderbeck wrote:
> > > I don't think anything in Matt. 23 gives anyone the right to bully
> > > other Christians with whom they disagree about debateable things. My
> > > Bible includes Matt. 23, but it also includes a whole bunch of stuff
> > > written by a guy named Paul (and / or his amenuensis or someone else,
> > > depending on what you think about the pastorals) on the subject of how
> > > we're supposed to treat each other when we disagree. The most
> > > significant thing Matt. 23 teaches us in this regard, I think, is that
> > > our Lord Jesus has no tolerance for elites who think it's their job to
> > > bludgeon everyone else into right thinking.
> > >
> > > David W. Opderbeck
> > I agree with the general thrust of your exhortation here, David, but a
> > point still remains about the example you used. The pharisees weren't
> > trying to bludgeon everyone else into right thinking. They were trying
> > to bludgeon everyone else into wrong thinking. Now, I know that in your
> > context above, that we should read implied quotation marks around the
> > word "right" as you used it. Yes, I agree that the chapter should be
> > first & foremost used to examine our own hearts & rightly or wrongly the
> > label "pharisee" has now become our modern metaphor for self-righteous
> > and hypocrite. But at some point, we are called to "gently restore our
> > brother", and I agree with you fully that "gently" means without sarcasm
> > or biting vitriol --- though it would seem Jesus & other previous
> > prophets pushed the envelope on that a bit. (and we are called to be
> > like Christ, so we can't just dismissively say, "well that was Him"
> > nevertheless I agree with you that Paul's exhortations still stand
> > also.) You are correcting a list member, are you not? --as well you
> > should if he is in the wrong. And he is trying to correct you, as well
> > he should if you are in the wrong. Whether or not you are using
> > bludgeons is, I guess, for you both to decide.
> >
> > And to echo what somebody else has said, I hope I am called to account
> > here whenever I write things not motivated by Christ's love. I know in
> > my heart that it is quite possible to say *true* things and still be
> > *not right*. And by that I mean, a person can mechanically (or
> > sinfully) declare things that are technically true and yet not be right
> > with God themselves as they are saying that very thing. I've heard
> > words leave my mouth and then know in my heart how hollow those words
> > were because they did not come out of love. I may have been "right"
> > technically, but yet not right in a more important sense, if you know
> > what I mean.
> >
> > --Merv
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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Received on Tue Feb 17 11:56:34 2009