Re: [asa] Two questions...

Agreed. That is the other major obsctacle to popular acceptance of TE in mainstream evangelical Christianity, the lack of a thought-out TE theology that is not anathema to the existing church.

Right off the bat, TE forces you to pretty much jettison inerrancy, special creation of man, a literal Adam being the progenitor of all humanity and original sin to name a few. My friend who is an evangelical seminary professor told me in a discussion about this that I have already denied 95% of orthodox Christianity just by denying these doctines. Ironically I am in a discussion with him now on exactly these issues on another list.

Although I agree there are reasonable answers to these thorny issues, they take some time to absorb and are a radical paradigm shift even for those of us that are aggressive truth seekers. This needs to be packaged delicately for spoon feeding the masses like my friend while at the same time very gently cushioning the blow. This is exactly the niche RTB filled so effectively in giving people a way out of YEC.

I am not sure we need to lay off the YEC bashing because first of all they need it and deserve it and secondly it is a great lead in to finding intellectual Christians who are disgruntled with the current synthesis of science and faith in the evangelical church and it is a good way of differentiating ourselves. We could use all the same marketing material of RTB like "no conflict", "2 books", "follow the evidence where it leads" etc, but really mean it. It would be like an RTB++.

The problem is it is likely not going to fly in the evangelical church for a while because even RTB is still a stretch there but I agree it could make inroads with some, especially those that have bothered to thoughtfully consider the fallout of all the ID publicity and literature of late.

I hope and pray that something like this can come to pass one day. Maybe some of you more enlightened ID supporters like yourself or Mike Gene can throw your hat in the ring to start something like this. I think that all that is necessary to redeem ID and bridge the gap with TE is to not insist that the conclusion of design is special creation and to not insist that it is scientifically detectable to the point where it gets hijacked by those that would shove it down the throats of the public in the courts.

Thanks

John

--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 8:56 PM
> I think a TE ministry would and could find success A) if it
> did not largely
> base itself on attacking YECs, but simply arguing the case
> for a TE view of
> genesis, and B) if it did not obviously dump large portions
> of biblical
> christianity as well, to the point that it seemed
> practically unitarian in
> outlook. The second part in particular seems to be a
> problem, since it often
> seems that one big roadblock to even considering TE is the
> view that
> evolution necessitates other views more orthodox christians
> sharply disagree
> with, such as a justification of eugenics-friendly views
> and policies.
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 8:38 PM, John Walley
> <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Also I thought of Fred Hereen who wrote "Show Me
> God" after I sent this. He
> > has a small radio and print ministry aimed at the
> popular audience that is
> > solidly TE. He is a good guy and may be a better
> example of what we have in
> > the way of nascent TE popular ministries but I agree I
> would like to see
> > more. In fact I would like to see a church atmosphere
> where those guys could
> > survive and even thrive. Well we can hope anyway.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions...
> > > To: "asa@calvin.edu"
> <asa@calvin.edu>
> > > Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 7:47 PM
> > > John Walley said " I think the best we have
> is the
> > > Thank God for Evolution guy but in my neck of the
> woods
> > > people think he is misguided at best, a quack in
> general and
> > > one of those evil-lutionist servants of Satan on
> the other
> > > extreme."
> > >
> > > That guy is not a Christian- he doesn't even
> believe in
> > > an afterlife. I asked him in a group
> presentation once in
> > > Portland. He masquerades as a Christian to get
> into the
> > > Christian marketplace, I think.
> > >
> > > ...Bernie
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> John Walley
> > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 4:35 PM
> > > To: Keith Miller; Dave Wallace
> > > Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation Affiliation
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Herein lies the reason for the lack of a
> prominent TE
> > > oriented ministry, there is no support or market
> for it in
> > > the church. Face it, becoming a TE will get you
> kicked out
> > > of most evangelical churches. My friend was
> afraid to tell
> > > his own wife for months and when he did he said
> he felt it
> > > would have been easier to tell her he was gay.
> > >
> > > I used to long for a TE ministry to belong to as
> well until
> > > I realized just how divisive and polarizing this
> was. I
> > > would love to see RTB or Ravi Z or William Lane
> Craig or
> > > Chuck Colson come out and stress honest science
> as an
> > > effective evangelical tool (what a concept) but
> it would
> > > likely mean ministry suicide for them overnight.
> Not that
> > > that is a bad thing but just something that is
> not likely to
> > > happen.
> > >
> > > I think the best we have is the Thank God for
> Evolution guy
> > > but in my neck of the woods people think he is
> misguided at
> > > best, a quack in general and one of those
> evil-lutionist
> > > servants of Satan on the other extreme. I think
> this is
> > > something that people just have to come to on
> their own and
> > > the word leaks out gradually. And maybe it is
> best if it is
> > > not popularized or marketed. The church
> definitely has a
> > > major theological reset coming to it though. I
> think it will
> > > be equivalent to that of the Copernican
> Revolution if not
> > > more impactful and I don't think that is an
> > > exaggeration.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Dave Wallace
> > > <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Dave Wallace
> <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions...
> > > > To: "Keith Miller"
> <kbmill@ksu.edu>
> > > > Cc: "AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > Affiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > > > Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 6:57 PM
> > > > Keith Miller wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think that there
> necessarily has to
> > > be an
> > > > organization built around every valued and
> important
> > > > ministry. I very much see myself in the
> role that you
> > > > describe above. That is the motivation for
> much of
> > > what I
> > > > do. There are many efforts by a diverse
> range of
> > > > individuals and organizations for which this
> is an
> > > important
> > > > goal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Keith
> > > > I for one very much appreciate the book that
> Keith
> > > > contributed to and edited as well as all the
> other
> > > people on
> > > > the list who also wrote chapters!
> > > > I would be very surprised if either Keith,
> George or
> > > Dick
> > > > make much if any money from their books. It
> would be
> > > nice
> > > > if there were an endowment to at least pay
> for a good
> > > part
> > > > of the authors time.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks all
> > > > Dave Wallace
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to
> majordomo@calvin.edu
> > > with
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> > > the
> > > > message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
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> >
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Received on Fri Feb 6 21:28:29 2009