Re: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

Iain

You focus on the major problem of evolution/creation on theological grounds.

Viz; was there any suffering , animal or human before the Fall.

First it depends on one's interpretation of Genesis 3, Romans 5 and 8 etc.
Some say that shows no suffering before the fall , others like me don't.

Second; if there was no suffering before the Fall then T Rex couldn't have
been shredding herbivores 100 million years ago and thus the vast age of the
earth must be wrong for theological reasons. Hence the reason why YECs put
great store on a young earth.

Without going into any detail. I don't think the biblical material demands
no death before the Fall and as the evidence for an ancient earth is totally
overwhelming that supports it. This is why I bang on about the geology and
deep time rather than cascading clotting blood (sounds very gory)

Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "IW" <iaincw@hushmail.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

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> - ----- Forwarded message from IW <iaincw@hushmail.com> -----
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> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:35:19 +0900 Iain Strachan
> <igd.strachan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Iain,
>>
>>Well, since you twisted my arm ..... ;-)
>
> Flattery is most useful is it not? ;) But seriously - I meant what
> i wrote.
>
> That is, no one has ever seen a cat turn into another
>>kind
>>> of animal that is new to this planet.
>
> See, one of the issues that I struggle with her relates back this -
> Animal X cannot become animal Y. I responded by saying that ok,
> lets say that evolutionary process does not happen. And lets say
> Death is post-fall...so... It was created as is. So....Were we
> created with teeth designed for chewing meat AND veggies, a
> digestive
> system to break it down? If we were then we must have been eating
> dead
> things. And if they were not dead when we ate them presumably they
> died. Killing other animals involves violence and pain. So....were
> we
> created that way?
>
> Predators are designed to hunt and kill. If they were created that
> way
> then death and violence and pain predate the fall. If not then how
> did
> they make the radical switch from a species that had no hunter
> instinct
> and no capacity to kill? And if they had no digestive processes
> prior
> to the fall how on earth did that happen? Did God re-create? We are
> not talking minor cosmetic changes here!
>
>
>>I really don't like the term "random chance" frequently used by
>>Creationists in their rhetoric.
>
> BINGO. me either. I asked him the same question - what is random
> chance?
>
> Just as your life could end at any moment
> (random) God is in control and aware of the when (so not random)and
> is not outside the realm of reason -
> our ignorance of process does not equal falseness of process. For
> example. If I drop a rock down a steep mountain slope
> - - - could you predict exactly what path the rock will take, where it
> will
> bounce, how far and how many bounces it takes etc? No. ergo, it is
> random. HOWEVER it will follow the laws of gravity and mathematics
> and
> with enough time, data and computer power you could work it out. It
> is
> random within a set of laws. So is evolution. It is not random in
> that
> it is total chaos roaring along. It is unknowable and unpredictable
> because of physical and data limitations - but
> not unlawful.
>
>> But it is STILL
>>RANDOM.
>
> Bingo.
>
>
>>My own personal take on it is that in order to understand and
>>appreciate light we have to understand darkness. To create a
>>world
>>where there is no suffering would not give us the perspective of
>>appreciation of the good things in life.
>
> Agreed. AND it begs the earlier question - predators and teeth.
> Take a T-rex. He does not eat veggies. Pain and suffering either
> existed from early on or massive changes happened post fall. You
> know - many
> people think that human suffering is proof that God does not exist -
> or
> at the very least
> - - - is not a very nice God. Yet Christians believe otherwise.
> Suffering
> and Godś love and perfection obviously do co-exist. Also, this
> belief
> assumes that evolution as a system has remained unchanged since
> inception (ironic since that would contradict the very word
> 'evolution').
>
>>
>
>>I'd better stop there as I've got people coming round. Hope some
>>of
>>it was useful.
>
> Excellent.
>
> Thanks muchly iain!
>
> Iain
>
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Received on Thu Nov 20 04:32:57 2008