Re: [asa] Anabaptist (alleged) error

Merv -

The way I would put it is that there may be differences among Christians about the point at which God's ordinary means of maintaining justice &c in society should be supplemented with, or replaced by, extraordinary means - i.e., resistance (passive or active) to "the powers that be" or revolution. I don't think that either extreme - either obedience to government without exception or denial that the state is a means through which God works - is legitimate.

& as I suggested, there is a parallel there with attitudes toward the church, the other "realm" in which God works through the Gospel. There can come a point where church authorities should be resisted or replaced - i.e., extraordinary measures. That's what Lutherans did at the time of the Reformation. With a few exceptions (esp. Sweden), bishops in territories that accepted the Lutheran reform were unwilling to ordain pastors for the Lutheran churches so the traditional route of episcopal ordination & the historic episcopate had to be bypassed. That was an emergency measure - there isn't anything wrong with the historic episcopate itself & retention of it would have been preferable, but the Gospel came 1st. (Now, with the agreement between the ELCA & the Episcopal Church in the USA - & a similar agreement in Europe - those emergency measures are no longer in force, at least for some Lutherans.

Shalom,
George

---- Merv <mrb22667@kansas.net> wrote:
> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com wrote:
> > Briefly -
> >
> > Merv & Dave O -
> >
> > Please read the list of caveats I included. Of course the power of the state can be abused & there can come a point where Christians are called upon to refuse to obey or to resist it. Luther recognized this - & that should come as no surprise from someone who believed that in the "realm" - the church - God's ministers could err & obedience might have to be denied them - "We must obet God rather than men." This does not negate the general principle that it is through the civil authorities through whom God normally operate to maintain some semblance of justice in the world, as Romans 13 clearly says.
> >
> > Or put it this way: How_does_ God act to maintain justice in the world? It has to involved human agency in some way. Does God inspire some kind of vigilante activity or is it ordered in some way? Presumably you're not going to say that God just isn't involved in maintaining order in society.
> >
> >
>
> I think your (quite sensible) caveats show the distinction on the peace
> issue to be a continuum rather than a hard wall. Some just make
> themselves more comfortable closer to the "legitimized government
> --within limits" end of the spectrum while others of us see cause for
> tighter restriction on what qualifies as being Caesar's rather than
> God's. (or --- given due consideration of Jesus' retort to his
> challengers), I think we would all agree that *everything* is God's and
> governments are given a role within that.
>
> Your insistence that sacraments are a means of God's grace also sounds
> quite reasonable to me --although my agreement here is glib and with
> relative ignorance of doctrinal nuances that Lutherans or others may apply.
>
> -Merv
>
> > Dave S -
> >
> > Yes, I know some of the history, though I'm sure not as well as you do. As I indicated in my caveats, the Anabaptist (& to be thorough one should include other groups - e.g., Quaker) tradition isn't monolithic. To the extent that any of them do see the stste as a means through which God works my criticism clearly doesn't touch them.
> >
> > Your final statements seriously misrepresent my view of the sacraments. I never said that they work inexorably to produce faith, any more than I would say that about the preached word. Why some people don't come to faith when God "desires that all men be saved & come to the knowledge of the truth" is a tough question but not one that particularly strikes the idea that the sacraments are means of grace.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > George
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Nov 9 13:19:10 2008