Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil his due)

Heya John,

I won't speak for Mike on this - I'd like to hear what he meant by the
second response, though I think I have an idea. But one thing I'd point out
is that Dawkins wasn't somewhat justified, because he wasn't making the
point you're attributing to him here. If he was denouncing strapping TNT to
a child and having them suicide bomb a place, it would be (I hope) an
uncontroversial condemnation. But when Dawkins is equating teaching about
hell, or just plain raising them with the beliefs of christianity or islam,
etc, with not only child abuse, but abuse worse than physical and other
types.. that's an incredibly broad, unjustified, and frankly inane claim.
Trying to turn it into 'well, he's somewhat correct because, even if what he
actually said is utterly wrong and baseless, I can imagine somewhat related
topics where he would have had a point if he said that instead' doesn't
work. If Dawkins were to say 'there was no religious persecution under the
soviets', it makes little sense to reason 'Well, he has a point - late into
his reign Stalin relaxed his policies on killing clergy and tearing down
churches, so that's something'.

Sometimes the devil is due nothing.

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:22 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Good grief. Why would anyone take issue with these simple observations
> below? Are you defending all religion all the time?
>
> The point was that Dawkins is at least somewhat justified in pointing out
> that some religious practices can have detrimental effects on people,
> especially kids. Take YEC for another example. Will you defend that as well?
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil his due)
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
> > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 2:35 PM
> > Hi John,
> >
> >
> >
> > "It is child abuse to teach a kid to strap on a
> > suicide vest and blow
> > himself and a bunch of innocent people up because they are
> > infidels"
> >
> >
> >
> > No, that's better described as murder.
> >
> >
> >
> > "and it is child abuse to teach a kid that handling
> > poisonous snakes is a
> > sign of their faith."
> >
> >
> >
> > Here, you sound like Dawkins. Do you have any evidence
> > that a such activity
> > is child abuse?
> >
> >
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > To: <asa@calvin.edu>; "Dehler, Bernie"
> > <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:45 AM
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil
> > his due)
> >
> >
> > > On Dawkins' chid abuse charge, you have to give
> > the devil his due. Some
> > > religion is child abuse.
> > >
> > > It is child abuse to teach a kid to strap on a suicide
> > vest and blow
> > > himself and a bunch of innocent people up because they
> > are infidels and it
> > > is child abuse to teach a kid that handling poisonous
> > snakes is a sign of
> > > their faith.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, Dehler, Bernie
> > <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Dehler, Bernie
> > <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > >> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> > >> To: "asa@calvin.edu"
> > <asa@calvin.edu>
> > >> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 6:59 PM
> > >> Schwarzwald said: "The bottom line simply
> > doesn't
> > >> work."
> > >>
> > >> Then I guess we will agree to disagree.
> > >>
> > >> I understand Dawkins completely. I disagree with
> > his
> > >> conclusion, but I can see what he means by the
> > 'child
> > >> abuse' statement. If it turns out that there
> > is no God,
> > >> and all us Christian are deluded, then I agree
> > with Dawkins
> > >> that children and others have been unnecessarily
> > damaged.
> > >>
> > >> ...Bernie
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > >> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Schwarzwald
> > >> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:48 PM
> > >> To: asa@calvin.edu
> > >> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> > >>
> > >> The bottom line simply doesn't work. As
> > I've
> > >> pointed out, there are plenty of undeniable (by
> > most atheist
> > >> and christians alike) facts about the world that
> > would be
> > >> cruel/abusive to tell a child, especially
> > depending on
> > >> context. Further, if the cruelty depends on the
> > truth of the
> > >> matter, then raising a child with atheist beliefs
> > is cruel
> > >> if there is a God - and no one can say whether or
> > not
> > >> it's actually cruel, because none of us are
> > privy to
> > >> that certain and demonstrable knowledge on the
> > question.
> > >> This before noting the problems with right/wrong
> > or
> > >> cruel/kind under an atheism-as-true perspective.
> > >>
> > >> And keep in mind that many people who leave one
> > faith or
> > >> another don't do so entirely because of the
> > faith
> > >> itself. I'm sure some people may fit the bill,
> > but there
> > >> are many, many people who are bitter about
> > christianity
> > >> because of their experience with other christians
> > >> (hypocrites, etc), with political stances, or
> > otherwise.
> > >> Mike's done a good job of pointing out where
> > >> Dawkins' claim must go for it to be true, and
> > why it
> > >> fails.
> > >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Dehler, Bernie
> > >>
> > <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> There are a lot of people who leave Christianity
> > and feel
> > >> abused by it. Many are quite bitter about it...
> > damaged
> > >> goods. You can read their "falling
> > away"
> > >> testimonies here:
> > >>
> > >> http://exchristian.net/
> > >>
> > >> Bottom line- if there's no God- it is cruel to
> > say
> > >> there's a God who will send you to hell if you
> > don't
> > >> accept his imaginary son. On the other hand, if
> > there is a
> > >> God and the gospel is true, a person loses out on
> > an
> > >> abundant life in Christ if he rejects it.
> > >>
> > >> If someone yells "FIRE" in a movie house
> > during
> > >> your favorite movie, would you be upset? It all
> > depends- on
> > >> whether the fire is true or not. If true,
> > you'll thank
> > >> them. If false, you'll hate them for wrecking
> > the
> > >> movie. Same exact thing... only different.
> > >>
> > >> ...Bernie
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From:
> > >>
> > asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
> > >>
> > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>]
> > >> On Behalf Of Iain Strachan
> > >> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:24 AM
> > >> To: Nucacids
> > >> Cc: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> > >> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> > >>
> > >> Mike,
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms
> > what
> > >> I've known
> > >> through empirical observation for a long time;
> > which is why
> > >> Dawkins's
> > >> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in
> > the
> > >> entire book as
> > >> far as I'm concerned.
> > >>
> > >> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line
> > for the
> > >> suicidal) I
> > >> get to talk with appalling regularity with people
> > who have
> > >> been
> > >> sexually abused as children. The damage it does
> > is
> > >> permanent - I do
> > >> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the
> > feelings of
> > >> guilt
> > >> (victims often think it's their fault), the
> > >> depression, the traumatic
> > >> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse
> > vividly, and
> > >> the
> > >> suicidal thoughts.
> > >>
> > >> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers
> > of no
> > >> hands the
> > >> number of times when I've spoken to a person
> > who was
> > >> traumatized by
> > >> being taught about hell.
> > >>
> > >> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of
> > his book
> > >> - as you say,
> > >> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is
> > >> deliberately using a
> > >> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his
> > point. I
> > >> was quite
> > >> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's
> > good to see
> > >> real evidence that
> > >> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his
> > sloppy
> > >> scholarship
> > >> here.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Iain.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids
> > >>
> > <nucacids@wowway.com<mailto:nucacids@wowway.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Hi Bernie,
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > "If Dawkins was right, then he would
> > have a very
> > >> good point. If there was
> > >> > no God heaven, or hell, then it could be
> > mental
> > >> torture on kids."
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > This is incorrect. Real child abuse and
> > mental
> > >> torture bring about changes
> > >> > in the brain and body that are detectable
> > later on in
> > >> life. For example, if
> > >> > you meet or know someone who has a low
> > self-esteem,
> > >> who has poor social
> > >> > skills, who battles depression, and who
> > suffers from a
> > >> variety of ailments
> > >> > (migraines, skin problems, digestive
> > problems, anxiety
> > >> issues, etc.),
> > >> > chances are good that this person was abused
> > as a
> > >> child. But don't take my
> > >> > word for it, look to science:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > "Childhood maltreatment strongly
> > predicts poor
> > >> psychiatric and physical
> > >> > health outcomes in adulthood. This overview
> > of the
> > >> literature shows that
> > >> > individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or
> > serious
> > >> family dysfunction as
> > >> > children are more likely to be depressed, to
> > >> experience other types of
> > >> > psychiatric illness, to have more physical
> > symptoms
> > >> (both medically
> > >> > explained and unexplained), and to engage in
> > more
> > >> health-risk behaviors than
> > >> > their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA.
> > 2004.
> > >> Relationships between
> > >> > childhood maltreatment, adult health and
> > psychiatric
> > >> outcomes, and medical
> > >> > utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl
> > >> 12:10-5.)"
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > There is no evidence that teaching children
> > about hell
> > >> results in these
> > >> > adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the
> > Professor for
> > >> the Public
> > >> > Understanding of Science, ignores the
> > extensive
> > >> scientific literature on
> > >> > child abuse and its effects. What's
> > more, there
> > >> is also a large body of
> > >> > scientific evidence that shows a religious
> > upbringing
> > >> is psychologically and
> > >> > developmentally positive. An there are
> > studies which
> > >> show religious people
> > >> > are less likely to engage in child abuse:
> > >> >
> > >> > "Religiosity and the socioemotional
> > adjustment of
> > >> adolescent mothers and
> > >> > their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG,
> > Lefever JB,
> > >> Whitman TL.
> > >> > J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
> > >> >
> > >> > This study assessed the impact of religiosity
> > on the
> > >> socioemotional and
> > >> > behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers
> > and their
> > >> offspring over 10
> > >> > years. Religiosity was defined as involvement
> > in
> > >> church and contact with and
> > >> > dependence on church officials and members.
> > Mothers
> > >> classified as high in
> > >> > religious involvement had significantly
> > higher
> > >> self-esteem and lower
> > >> > depression scores, exhibited less child abuse
> > >> potential, and had higher
> > >> > occupational and educational attainment than
> > mothers
> > >> classified as low in
> > >> > religious involvement; differences remained
> > when
> > >> multiple factors, such as
> > >> > stress and grandmother support, were held
> > constant.
> > >> Children with more
> > >> > religious mothers had fewer internalizing and
> > >> externalizing problems at 10
> > >> > years of age, with maternal adjustment
> > mediating this
> > >> relationship.
> > >> > Religiosity, through increased social
> > support, served
> > >> as a protective factor
> > >> > for teenaged mothers and their
> > children."
> > >> >
> > >> > Dawkins also ignores these data.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and
> > intellectual
> > >> dishonesty in Dawkins
> > >> > message. On one hand, he claims science has
> > disproven
> > >> the existence of God,
> > >> > yet there are no scientific studies that
> > attempt to
> > >> determine whether or not
> > >> > God exists. On the other hand, there are
> > plenty of
> > >> scientific studies that
> > >> > undercut his "religious upbringing as
> > child
> > >> abuse" message, and the
> > >> > scientist ignores these.
> > >> >
> > >> > What he instead offers in his book is
> > rhetoric and
> > >> anecdote. He tells the
> > >> > story about a letter he received from some
> > unknown
> > >> woman who got over her
> > >> > sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell
> > beliefs.
> > >> Of course, there is
> > >> > no effort to substantiate this account;
> > Dawkins trusts
> > >> it on blind faith.
> > >> > But even if the story is true, I'd bet
> > this woman
> > >> has many monsters in her
> > >> > past and her mind has decided to "blame
> > >> hell" as a defensive mechanism. It's
> > >> > often easier to lash out at an idea than
> > relive the
> > >> hellish experience that
> > >> > can come from *people.*
> > >> >
> > >> > Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist,
> > there is no
> > >> evidence that such
> > >> > belief generates the effects typically
> > associated with
> > >> child abuse.
> > >> > Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that
> > strong
> > >> religiosity during
> > >> > childhood has a positive effect on
> > development.
> > >> >
> > >> > -Mike
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: Dehler, Bernie
> > >> > To:
> > asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> > >> > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
> > >> > Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> > >> >
> > >> > If Dawkins was right, then he would have a
> > very good
> > >> point. If there was no
> > >> > God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental
> > torture
> > >> on kids. However, if
> > >> > Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell
> > for
> > >> it... likely... but that would be
> > >> > God's call.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ...Bernie
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> -----------
> > >> Non timeo sed caveo
> > >>
> > >> -----------
> > >>
> > >>
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Received on Sun Nov 9 08:14:40 2008