Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil his due)

Hi John,

"It is child abuse to teach a kid to strap on a suicide vest and blow
himself and a bunch of innocent people up because they are infidels"

No, that's better described as murder.

"and it is child abuse to teach a kid that handling poisonous snakes is a
sign of their faith."

Here, you sound like Dawkins. Do you have any evidence that a such activity
is child abuse?

- Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>; "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil his due)

> On Dawkins' chid abuse charge, you have to give the devil his due. Some
> religion is child abuse.
>
> It is child abuse to teach a kid to strap on a suicide vest and blow
> himself and a bunch of innocent people up because they are infidels and it
> is child abuse to teach a kid that handling poisonous snakes is a sign of
> their faith.
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Fri, 11/7/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>> To: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 6:59 PM
>> Schwarzwald said: "The bottom line simply doesn't
>> work."
>>
>> Then I guess we will agree to disagree.
>>
>> I understand Dawkins completely. I disagree with his
>> conclusion, but I can see what he means by the 'child
>> abuse' statement. If it turns out that there is no God,
>> and all us Christian are deluded, then I agree with Dawkins
>> that children and others have been unnecessarily damaged.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Schwarzwald
>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:48 PM
>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>>
>> The bottom line simply doesn't work. As I've
>> pointed out, there are plenty of undeniable (by most atheist
>> and christians alike) facts about the world that would be
>> cruel/abusive to tell a child, especially depending on
>> context. Further, if the cruelty depends on the truth of the
>> matter, then raising a child with atheist beliefs is cruel
>> if there is a God - and no one can say whether or not
>> it's actually cruel, because none of us are privy to
>> that certain and demonstrable knowledge on the question.
>> This before noting the problems with right/wrong or
>> cruel/kind under an atheism-as-true perspective.
>>
>> And keep in mind that many people who leave one faith or
>> another don't do so entirely because of the faith
>> itself. I'm sure some people may fit the bill, but there
>> are many, many people who are bitter about christianity
>> because of their experience with other christians
>> (hypocrites, etc), with political stances, or otherwise.
>> Mike's done a good job of pointing out where
>> Dawkins' claim must go for it to be true, and why it
>> fails.
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Dehler, Bernie
>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
>> wrote:
>> There are a lot of people who leave Christianity and feel
>> abused by it. Many are quite bitter about it... damaged
>> goods. You can read their "falling away"
>> testimonies here:
>>
>> http://exchristian.net/
>>
>> Bottom line- if there's no God- it is cruel to say
>> there's a God who will send you to hell if you don't
>> accept his imaginary son. On the other hand, if there is a
>> God and the gospel is true, a person loses out on an
>> abundant life in Christ if he rejects it.
>>
>> If someone yells "FIRE" in a movie house during
>> your favorite movie, would you be upset? It all depends- on
>> whether the fire is true or not. If true, you'll thank
>> them. If false, you'll hate them for wrecking the
>> movie. Same exact thing... only different.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>]
>> On Behalf Of Iain Strachan
>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:24 AM
>> To: Nucacids
>> Cc: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms what
>> I've known
>> through empirical observation for a long time; which is why
>> Dawkins's
>> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in the
>> entire book as
>> far as I'm concerned.
>>
>> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line for the
>> suicidal) I
>> get to talk with appalling regularity with people who have
>> been
>> sexually abused as children. The damage it does is
>> permanent - I do
>> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the feelings of
>> guilt
>> (victims often think it's their fault), the
>> depression, the traumatic
>> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse vividly, and
>> the
>> suicidal thoughts.
>>
>> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers of no
>> hands the
>> number of times when I've spoken to a person who was
>> traumatized by
>> being taught about hell.
>>
>> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of his book
>> - as you say,
>> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is
>> deliberately using a
>> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his point. I
>> was quite
>> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's good to see
>> real evidence that
>> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his sloppy
>> scholarship
>> here.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Iain.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids
>> <nucacids@wowway.com<mailto:nucacids@wowway.com>>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Bernie,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very
>> good point. If there was
>> > no God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental
>> torture on kids."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is incorrect. Real child abuse and mental
>> torture bring about changes
>> > in the brain and body that are detectable later on in
>> life. For example, if
>> > you meet or know someone who has a low self-esteem,
>> who has poor social
>> > skills, who battles depression, and who suffers from a
>> variety of ailments
>> > (migraines, skin problems, digestive problems, anxiety
>> issues, etc.),
>> > chances are good that this person was abused as a
>> child. But don't take my
>> > word for it, look to science:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Childhood maltreatment strongly predicts poor
>> psychiatric and physical
>> > health outcomes in adulthood. This overview of the
>> literature shows that
>> > individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or serious
>> family dysfunction as
>> > children are more likely to be depressed, to
>> experience other types of
>> > psychiatric illness, to have more physical symptoms
>> (both medically
>> > explained and unexplained), and to engage in more
>> health-risk behaviors than
>> > their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA. 2004.
>> Relationships between
>> > childhood maltreatment, adult health and psychiatric
>> outcomes, and medical
>> > utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl
>> 12:10-5.)"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There is no evidence that teaching children about hell
>> results in these
>> > adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the Professor for
>> the Public
>> > Understanding of Science, ignores the extensive
>> scientific literature on
>> > child abuse and its effects. What's more, there
>> is also a large body of
>> > scientific evidence that shows a religious upbringing
>> is psychologically and
>> > developmentally positive. An there are studies which
>> show religious people
>> > are less likely to engage in child abuse:
>> >
>> > "Religiosity and the socioemotional adjustment of
>> adolescent mothers and
>> > their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG, Lefever JB,
>> Whitman TL.
>> > J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
>> >
>> > This study assessed the impact of religiosity on the
>> socioemotional and
>> > behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers and their
>> offspring over 10
>> > years. Religiosity was defined as involvement in
>> church and contact with and
>> > dependence on church officials and members. Mothers
>> classified as high in
>> > religious involvement had significantly higher
>> self-esteem and lower
>> > depression scores, exhibited less child abuse
>> potential, and had higher
>> > occupational and educational attainment than mothers
>> classified as low in
>> > religious involvement; differences remained when
>> multiple factors, such as
>> > stress and grandmother support, were held constant.
>> Children with more
>> > religious mothers had fewer internalizing and
>> externalizing problems at 10
>> > years of age, with maternal adjustment mediating this
>> relationship.
>> > Religiosity, through increased social support, served
>> as a protective factor
>> > for teenaged mothers and their children."
>> >
>> > Dawkins also ignores these data.
>> >
>> > Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and intellectual
>> dishonesty in Dawkins
>> > message. On one hand, he claims science has disproven
>> the existence of God,
>> > yet there are no scientific studies that attempt to
>> determine whether or not
>> > God exists. On the other hand, there are plenty of
>> scientific studies that
>> > undercut his "religious upbringing as child
>> abuse" message, and the
>> > scientist ignores these.
>> >
>> > What he instead offers in his book is rhetoric and
>> anecdote. He tells the
>> > story about a letter he received from some unknown
>> woman who got over her
>> > sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell beliefs.
>> Of course, there is
>> > no effort to substantiate this account; Dawkins trusts
>> it on blind faith.
>> > But even if the story is true, I'd bet this woman
>> has many monsters in her
>> > past and her mind has decided to "blame
>> hell" as a defensive mechanism. It's
>> > often easier to lash out at an idea than relive the
>> hellish experience that
>> > can come from *people.*
>> >
>> > Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist, there is no
>> evidence that such
>> > belief generates the effects typically associated with
>> child abuse.
>> > Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that strong
>> religiosity during
>> > childhood has a positive effect on development.
>> >
>> > -Mike
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Dehler, Bernie
>> > To: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
>> > Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>> >
>> > If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good
>> point. If there was no
>> > God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture
>> on kids. However, if
>> > Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell for
>> it... likely... but that would be
>> > God's call.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ...Bernie
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------
>> Non timeo sed caveo
>>
>> -----------
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to
>> majordomo@calvin.edu<mailto:majordomo@calvin.edu> with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the
>> message.
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to
>> majordomo@calvin.edu<mailto:majordomo@calvin.edu> with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the
>> message.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1775 - Release Date: 11/8/2008
> 9:56 AM
>
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sat Nov 8 14:35:43 2008