RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again (giving the devil his due)

On Dawkins' chid abuse charge, you have to give the devil his due. Some religion is child abuse.

It is child abuse to teach a kid to strap on a suicide vest and blow himself and a bunch of innocent people up because they are infidels and it is child abuse to teach a kid that handling poisonous snakes is a sign of their faith.

John

--- On Fri, 11/7/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> To: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 6:59 PM
> Schwarzwald said: "The bottom line simply doesn't
> work."
>
> Then I guess we will agree to disagree.
>
> I understand Dawkins completely. I disagree with his
> conclusion, but I can see what he means by the 'child
> abuse' statement. If it turns out that there is no God,
> and all us Christian are deluded, then I agree with Dawkins
> that children and others have been unnecessarily damaged.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> ________________________________
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Schwarzwald
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:48 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>
> The bottom line simply doesn't work. As I've
> pointed out, there are plenty of undeniable (by most atheist
> and christians alike) facts about the world that would be
> cruel/abusive to tell a child, especially depending on
> context. Further, if the cruelty depends on the truth of the
> matter, then raising a child with atheist beliefs is cruel
> if there is a God - and no one can say whether or not
> it's actually cruel, because none of us are privy to
> that certain and demonstrable knowledge on the question.
> This before noting the problems with right/wrong or
> cruel/kind under an atheism-as-true perspective.
>
> And keep in mind that many people who leave one faith or
> another don't do so entirely because of the faith
> itself. I'm sure some people may fit the bill, but there
> are many, many people who are bitter about christianity
> because of their experience with other christians
> (hypocrites, etc), with political stances, or otherwise.
> Mike's done a good job of pointing out where
> Dawkins' claim must go for it to be true, and why it
> fails.
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
> wrote:
> There are a lot of people who leave Christianity and feel
> abused by it. Many are quite bitter about it... damaged
> goods. You can read their "falling away"
> testimonies here:
>
> http://exchristian.net/
>
> Bottom line- if there's no God- it is cruel to say
> there's a God who will send you to hell if you don't
> accept his imaginary son. On the other hand, if there is a
> God and the gospel is true, a person loses out on an
> abundant life in Christ if he rejects it.
>
> If someone yells "FIRE" in a movie house during
> your favorite movie, would you be upset? It all depends- on
> whether the fire is true or not. If true, you'll thank
> them. If false, you'll hate them for wrecking the
> movie. Same exact thing... only different.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>]
> On Behalf Of Iain Strachan
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 12:24 AM
> To: Nucacids
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms what
> I've known
> through empirical observation for a long time; which is why
> Dawkins's
> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in the
> entire book as
> far as I'm concerned.
>
> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line for the
> suicidal) I
> get to talk with appalling regularity with people who have
> been
> sexually abused as children. The damage it does is
> permanent - I do
> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the feelings of
> guilt
> (victims often think it's their fault), the
> depression, the traumatic
> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse vividly, and
> the
> suicidal thoughts.
>
> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers of no
> hands the
> number of times when I've spoken to a person who was
> traumatized by
> being taught about hell.
>
> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of his book
> - as you say,
> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is
> deliberately using a
> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his point. I
> was quite
> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's good to see
> real evidence that
> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his sloppy
> scholarship
> here.
>
> Regards,
> Iain.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids
> <nucacids@wowway.com<mailto:nucacids@wowway.com>>
> wrote:
> > Hi Bernie,
> >
> >
> >
> > "If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very
> good point. If there was
> > no God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental
> torture on kids."
> >
> >
> >
> > This is incorrect. Real child abuse and mental
> torture bring about changes
> > in the brain and body that are detectable later on in
> life. For example, if
> > you meet or know someone who has a low self-esteem,
> who has poor social
> > skills, who battles depression, and who suffers from a
> variety of ailments
> > (migraines, skin problems, digestive problems, anxiety
> issues, etc.),
> > chances are good that this person was abused as a
> child. But don't take my
> > word for it, look to science:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Childhood maltreatment strongly predicts poor
> psychiatric and physical
> > health outcomes in adulthood. This overview of the
> literature shows that
> > individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or serious
> family dysfunction as
> > children are more likely to be depressed, to
> experience other types of
> > psychiatric illness, to have more physical symptoms
> (both medically
> > explained and unexplained), and to engage in more
> health-risk behaviors than
> > their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA. 2004.
> Relationships between
> > childhood maltreatment, adult health and psychiatric
> outcomes, and medical
> > utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl
> 12:10-5.)"
> >
> >
> >
> > There is no evidence that teaching children about hell
> results in these
> > adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the Professor for
> the Public
> > Understanding of Science, ignores the extensive
> scientific literature on
> > child abuse and its effects. What's more, there
> is also a large body of
> > scientific evidence that shows a religious upbringing
> is psychologically and
> > developmentally positive. An there are studies which
> show religious people
> > are less likely to engage in child abuse:
> >
> > "Religiosity and the socioemotional adjustment of
> adolescent mothers and
> > their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG, Lefever JB,
> Whitman TL.
> > J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
> >
> > This study assessed the impact of religiosity on the
> socioemotional and
> > behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers and their
> offspring over 10
> > years. Religiosity was defined as involvement in
> church and contact with and
> > dependence on church officials and members. Mothers
> classified as high in
> > religious involvement had significantly higher
> self-esteem and lower
> > depression scores, exhibited less child abuse
> potential, and had higher
> > occupational and educational attainment than mothers
> classified as low in
> > religious involvement; differences remained when
> multiple factors, such as
> > stress and grandmother support, were held constant.
> Children with more
> > religious mothers had fewer internalizing and
> externalizing problems at 10
> > years of age, with maternal adjustment mediating this
> relationship.
> > Religiosity, through increased social support, served
> as a protective factor
> > for teenaged mothers and their children."
> >
> > Dawkins also ignores these data.
> >
> > Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and intellectual
> dishonesty in Dawkins
> > message. On one hand, he claims science has disproven
> the existence of God,
> > yet there are no scientific studies that attempt to
> determine whether or not
> > God exists. On the other hand, there are plenty of
> scientific studies that
> > undercut his "religious upbringing as child
> abuse" message, and the
> > scientist ignores these.
> >
> > What he instead offers in his book is rhetoric and
> anecdote. He tells the
> > story about a letter he received from some unknown
> woman who got over her
> > sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell beliefs.
> Of course, there is
> > no effort to substantiate this account; Dawkins trusts
> it on blind faith.
> > But even if the story is true, I'd bet this woman
> has many monsters in her
> > past and her mind has decided to "blame
> hell" as a defensive mechanism. It's
> > often easier to lash out at an idea than relive the
> hellish experience that
> > can come from *people.*
> >
> > Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist, there is no
> evidence that such
> > belief generates the effects typically associated with
> child abuse.
> > Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that strong
> religiosity during
> > childhood has a positive effect on development.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dehler, Bernie
> > To: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
> >
> > If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good
> point. If there was no
> > God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture
> on kids. However, if
> > Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell for
> it... likely... but that would be
> > God's call.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
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Received on Sat Nov 8 05:45:30 2008