[asa] Anabaptist error (Was Re: sacraments as means of grace.....)

A new subject line may get a bit more attention to a thread that has moved a good deal from its original topic. But the "Anabaptist error" is not unique to Anabaptists & is basically the same as that of any who reject the idea that sacraments can be means of grace - i.e., denial of secondary causation. In the Anabaptist case this has do do not just with sacraments but with their ideas about government. Paul says very clearly in Romans 13 that the state is a minister of God through whom God maintains order in the world. Rejection of this belief in one degree or another - including the idea that Christians should not participate in civil government - is the same error as the belief that the Holy Spirit must convert people directly, without the mediation of word and sacraments, as well as the notion that God had to create living things directly rather than by working through natural processes.

Caveats: I am not saying that all Anabaptists, or anyone else, must hold all of those views if they hold one. (Zwingli, e.g., was inconsistent in that regard.) I also recognize that not all who consider themselves to be in the Anabaptist tradition have exactly the same views about government. Furthermore, Christians who do recognize a legitimate role for civil government and for Christian participation in it need not hold precisely Luther's "two kingdoms" (better "two realms" or even "two rules" - Zweireichenlehre) theory which has sometimes been seriously abused. & in particular, I am not saying that there can be no legitimate Christian pacifism.

But with all those qualification, I think that Christians who reject any of these 3 ideas (the state as a minister of God, Word & sacraments as means, evolution as the means by which God creates living things) ought to reflect seriously on just how they think God acts in the world & whether or not their views on the matter are consistent.

The Anabaptists in the 16th century were right to object to the automatic baptism of infants as a cultural practice as then practiced in western Europe, and refusal to baptize babies might have been a legitimate protest against abuses. But it's a very different matter to deny the validity of baptism that is administered to infants.

Shalom
George
http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
To: <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
Cc: <muzhogg@netspace.net.au>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communion)

> As I understand it, the Swiss Brethren were notably law-abiding. The
> Amish are some of their descendants. On the other hand, Luther was faced
> with ultra-radical groups who took over a couple cities. The Dutch
> Mennonites were also law-abiding. A group was invited to work the river
> near Dantzig. When the bellicose Prussians moved in, they accepted
> Catherine the Great's invitation to settle in the Ukraine.
>
> As to variety, in Steinbach, Manitoba, there were in the 50s 8 Mennonite
> churches representing 7 different denominations. Some Mennonites are
> similar to Baptists, but most are pourers or more like traditional
> Methodists in their view on sanctification.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 10:30:35 +1300 Don Nield <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
> writes:
>> Murray, Dave:
>> As I understand it, the radical reformation (by people who later
>> became
>> labeled as Anabaptists) started in Zurich, Zwingli's city. Civil
>> disorder was probably more important than theology in determining
>> Zwingli's stance in this instance.
>> Don
>>
>> Murray Hogg wrote:
>> > Hi Dave,
>> >
>> > Hmm... seems there's a darker side to Zwingli's story I'm not
>> familiar
>> > with. I'll have to have a look into that. I'd always thought
>> Luther
>> > was the bane of the Anabaptists - but if the Anabaptists
>> themselves
>> > don't see it that way...
>> >
>> > Are member congregations of Baptist conventions/associations very
>>
>> > independent minded over there? Here we're positively anarchistic
>> (n
>> > Baptists = n^2 opinions!)!
>> >
>> > Blessings,
>> > Murray
>> >
>> > D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote:
>> >> Murray,
>> >> Sorry that I did not recognize that you had mentioned Zwingli.
>> Yes, the
>> >> only Baptist church in their terminology are individual
>> congregations.
>> >> The groups are commonly conventions or associations on this side
>> of the
>> >> pond, whereas your group forms a union.
>> >>
>> >> There is much to commend in Zwingli, but he is detested in
>> Anabaptist
>> >> circles as the most vicious persecuter among the reformers. But
>> it was
>> >> Catholics who almost exterminated the Hutterites.
>> >> Dave (ASA)
>> >
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Received on Sat Nov 8 11:18:09 2008