Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again

Hi Mike,

Interesting pieces, but a couple of very brief thoughts;

First, the Calgary Herald piece emphasizes that "spirituality" rather than "religion" is the point at issue - and mentions social activities such as sports as being part of this package. So maybe this particular piece wouldn't contribute to overturning Dawkin's argument?

Second, the same piece mentions Denmark, Switzerland and Austria as the "happiest" countries in the world - and it would be quite predictable that an atheist would try to make something of the secular nature of these countries. So, again, it might not quite serve to overturn Dawkin's argument.

Third, I notice that the breakpoint article speaks of "health" rather than "happiness" - and I wonder if we might not pause to ask what, precisely, is it that we as Christians wish to advocate here? It might be that the reason that "spirituality" makes one happier than "religion" AND that happiness is higher in secular countries, is precisely because personal growth is thought of in terms of pursuing self-affirmation rather than moral virtue.

None of which is an argument for anything, I hasten to add - they are merely observations which demand scrutiny and may or may not prove valuable. They do, however, highlight points which I would want to address before appealing to such reports in defense of the Christian faith in particular.

Blessings,
Murray

Nucacids wrote:
> Hi Iain,
>
> Here's a couple more articles you'll want to check out:
>
> http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6192
>
>
>
> http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/reallife/story.html?id=1d58a4eb-9d2a-4b67-8f17-4d4757337551
>
>
>
>
> Also, I would like to thank you for your voluntary work. It would be
> inspiring to see a thread where people shared a few words about their
> service, as such good work usually goes unnoticed in a medium like this.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain Strachan" <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
> To: "Nucacids" <nucacids@wowway.com>
> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms what I've known
>> through empirical observation for a long time; which is why Dawkins's
>> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in the entire book as
>> far as I'm concerned.
>>
>> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line for the suicidal) I
>> get to talk with appalling regularity with people who have been
>> sexually abused as children. The damage it does is permanent - I do
>> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the feelings of guilt
>> (victims often think it's their fault), the depression, the traumatic
>> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse vividly, and the
>> suicidal thoughts.
>>
>> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers of no hands the
>> number of times when I've spoken to a person who was traumatized by
>> being taught about hell.
>>
>> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of his book - as you say,
>> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is deliberately using a
>> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his point. I was quite
>> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's good to see real evidence that
>> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his sloppy scholarship
>> here.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Iain.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Bernie,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If
>>> there was
>>> no God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is incorrect. Real child abuse and mental torture bring about
>>> changes
>>> in the brain and body that are detectable later on in life. For
>>> example, if
>>> you meet or know someone who has a low self-esteem, who has poor social
>>> skills, who battles depression, and who suffers from a variety of
>>> ailments
>>> (migraines, skin problems, digestive problems, anxiety issues, etc.),
>>> chances are good that this person was abused as a child. But don't
>>> take my
>>> word for it, look to science:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Childhood maltreatment strongly predicts poor psychiatric and physical
>>> health outcomes in adulthood. This overview of the literature shows that
>>> individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or serious family dysfunction as
>>> children are more likely to be depressed, to experience other types of
>>> psychiatric illness, to have more physical symptoms (both medically
>>> explained and unexplained), and to engage in more health-risk
>>> behaviors than
>>> their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA. 2004. Relationships between
>>> childhood maltreatment, adult health and psychiatric outcomes, and
>>> medical
>>> utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl 12:10-5.)"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no evidence that teaching children about hell results in these
>>> adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the Professor for the Public
>>> Understanding of Science, ignores the extensive scientific literature on
>>> child abuse and its effects. What's more, there is also a large body of
>>> scientific evidence that shows a religious upbringing is
>>> psychologically and
>>> developmentally positive. An there are studies which show religious
>>> people
>>> are less likely to engage in child abuse:
>>>
>>> "Religiosity and the socioemotional adjustment of adolescent mothers and
>>> their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG, Lefever JB, Whitman TL.
>>> J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
>>>
>>> This study assessed the impact of religiosity on the socioemotional and
>>> behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers and their offspring over 10
>>> years. Religiosity was defined as involvement in church and contact
>>> with and
>>> dependence on church officials and members. Mothers classified as
>>> high in
>>> religious involvement had significantly higher self-esteem and lower
>>> depression scores, exhibited less child abuse potential, and had higher
>>> occupational and educational attainment than mothers classified as
>>> low in
>>> religious involvement; differences remained when multiple factors,
>>> such as
>>> stress and grandmother support, were held constant. Children with more
>>> religious mothers had fewer internalizing and externalizing problems
>>> at 10
>>> years of age, with maternal adjustment mediating this relationship.
>>> Religiosity, through increased social support, served as a protective
>>> factor
>>> for teenaged mothers and their children."
>>>
>>> Dawkins also ignores these data.
>>>
>>> Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty in
>>> Dawkins
>>> message. On one hand, he claims science has disproven the existence
>>> of God,
>>> yet there are no scientific studies that attempt to determine whether
>>> or not
>>> God exists. On the other hand, there are plenty of scientific
>>> studies that
>>> undercut his "religious upbringing as child abuse" message, and the
>>> scientist ignores these.
>>>
>>> What he instead offers in his book is rhetoric and anecdote. He
>>> tells the
>>> story about a letter he received from some unknown woman who got over
>>> her
>>> sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell beliefs. Of course,
>>> there is
>>> no effort to substantiate this account; Dawkins trusts it on blind
>>> faith.
>>> But even if the story is true, I'd bet this woman has many monsters
>>> in her
>>> past and her mind has decided to "blame hell" as a defensive
>>> mechanism. It's
>>> often easier to lash out at an idea than relive the hellish
>>> experience that
>>> can come from *people.*
>>>
>>> Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist, there is no evidence that such
>>> belief generates the effects typically associated with child abuse.
>>> Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that strong religiosity during
>>> childhood has a positive effect on development.
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Dehler, Bernie
>>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>>>
>>> If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If there
>>> was no
>>> God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids.
>>> However, if
>>> Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell for it… likely… but that
>>> would be
>>> God's call.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> …Bernie
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Fri Nov 7 21:15:05 2008