Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again

Hi Iain,

Here's a couple more articles you'll want to check out:

http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6192

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/reallife/story.html?id=1d58a4eb-9d2a-4b67-8f17-4d4757337551

Also, I would like to thank you for your voluntary work. It would be
inspiring to see a thread where people shared a few words about their
service, as such good work usually goes unnoticed in a medium like this.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Iain Strachan" <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
To: "Nucacids" <nucacids@wowway.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins is at it again

> Mike,
>
> Thanks for presenting this evidence. It confirms what I've known
> through empirical observation for a long time; which is why Dawkins's
> comments on child-abuse were the most offensive in the entire book as
> far as I'm concerned.
>
> In my voluntary work ( a telephone support line for the suicidal) I
> get to talk with appalling regularity with people who have been
> sexually abused as children. The damage it does is permanent - I do
> indeed get to see the lack of self-esteem, the feelings of guilt
> (victims often think it's their fault), the depression, the traumatic
> flashbacks when the victim re-lives the abuse vividly, and the
> suicidal thoughts.
>
> But on the other hand, I can count on the fingers of no hands the
> number of times when I've spoken to a person who was traumatized by
> being taught about hell.
>
> Dawkins's approach is shameful in this part of his book - as you say,
> it ignores the evidence, and, it seems to me, is deliberately using a
> highly emotive subject (child abuse) to make his point. I was quite
> disgusted by Dawkins's claims, so it's good to see real evidence that
> counters it. Dawkins is without excuse for his sloppy scholarship
> here.
>
> Regards,
> Iain.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bernie,
>>
>>
>>
>> "If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If there
>> was
>> no God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids."
>>
>>
>>
>> This is incorrect. Real child abuse and mental torture bring about
>> changes
>> in the brain and body that are detectable later on in life. For example,
>> if
>> you meet or know someone who has a low self-esteem, who has poor social
>> skills, who battles depression, and who suffers from a variety of
>> ailments
>> (migraines, skin problems, digestive problems, anxiety issues, etc.),
>> chances are good that this person was abused as a child. But don't take
>> my
>> word for it, look to science:
>>
>>
>>
>> "Childhood maltreatment strongly predicts poor psychiatric and physical
>> health outcomes in adulthood. This overview of the literature shows that
>> individuals who suffer abuse, neglect, or serious family dysfunction as
>> children are more likely to be depressed, to experience other types of
>> psychiatric illness, to have more physical symptoms (both medically
>> explained and unexplained), and to engage in more health-risk behaviors
>> than
>> their nonabused counterparts. (Arnow BA. 2004. Relationships between
>> childhood maltreatment, adult health and psychiatric outcomes, and
>> medical
>> utilization. J Clin Psychiatry. 65 Suppl 12:10-5.)"
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no evidence that teaching children about hell results in these
>> adult outcomes. Dawkins, writing as the Professor for the Public
>> Understanding of Science, ignores the extensive scientific literature on
>> child abuse and its effects. What's more, there is also a large body of
>> scientific evidence that shows a religious upbringing is psychologically
>> and
>> developmentally positive. An there are studies which show religious
>> people
>> are less likely to engage in child abuse:
>>
>> "Religiosity and the socioemotional adjustment of adolescent mothers and
>> their children.Carothers SS, Borkowski JG, Lefever JB, Whitman TL.
>> J Fam Psychol. 2005 Jun;19(2):263-75.
>>
>> This study assessed the impact of religiosity on the socioemotional and
>> behavioral outcomes of 91 adolescent mothers and their offspring over 10
>> years. Religiosity was defined as involvement in church and contact with
>> and
>> dependence on church officials and members. Mothers classified as high in
>> religious involvement had significantly higher self-esteem and lower
>> depression scores, exhibited less child abuse potential, and had higher
>> occupational and educational attainment than mothers classified as low in
>> religious involvement; differences remained when multiple factors, such
>> as
>> stress and grandmother support, were held constant. Children with more
>> religious mothers had fewer internalizing and externalizing problems at
>> 10
>> years of age, with maternal adjustment mediating this relationship.
>> Religiosity, through increased social support, served as a protective
>> factor
>> for teenaged mothers and their children."
>>
>> Dawkins also ignores these data.
>>
>> Thus, there is a profound hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty in
>> Dawkins
>> message. On one hand, he claims science has disproven the existence of
>> God,
>> yet there are no scientific studies that attempt to determine whether or
>> not
>> God exists. On the other hand, there are plenty of scientific studies
>> that
>> undercut his "religious upbringing as child abuse" message, and the
>> scientist ignores these.
>>
>> What he instead offers in his book is rhetoric and anecdote. He tells
>> the
>> story about a letter he received from some unknown woman who got over her
>> sexual abuse, but is still tormented by hell beliefs. Of course, there
>> is
>> no effort to substantiate this account; Dawkins trusts it on blind faith.
>> But even if the story is true, I'd bet this woman has many monsters in
>> her
>> past and her mind has decided to "blame hell" as a defensive mechanism.
>> It's
>> often easier to lash out at an idea than relive the hellish experience
>> that
>> can come from *people.*
>>
>> Bottom line: Even if hell does not exist, there is no evidence that such
>> belief generates the effects typically associated with child abuse.
>> Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that strong religiosity during
>> childhood has a positive effect on development.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dehler, Bernie
>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:54 AM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins is at it again
>>
>> If Dawkins was right, then he would have a very good point. If there was
>> no
>> God heaven, or hell, then it could be mental torture on kids. However,
>> if
>> Dawkins is wrong, then he'll burn in hell for it… likely… but that would
>> be
>> God's call.
>>
>>
>>
>> …Bernie
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Received on Fri Nov 7 20:47:36 2008