Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communion)

Murray,
The point you make about the variety of Baptists may be expanded greatly.
My recollection is that some time ago the report was that there were some
400 different Baptist groups, but I don't know if that was only in the
States. I recall a Primitive Baptist Church where they had no musical
instruments, but the hymnbook had shaped notes to help cue the singers.
Also, they would not have a local pastor, but depended on itinerant
teachers. The group with the most curious name that I have encountered is
the Two Seeds in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, countered by the
Free Will Baptists. Years ago there was a Northern Baptist Convention,
renamed American. It gave rise to the Conservative Baptist Convention. An
earlier split produced the General Association of Regular Baptist
Churches. I recall two groups that had ethnic roots, Swedish and German
respectively. A different ethnicity produced some Black groups. I have no
idea how many completely independent Baptist Churches exist.

The discussion has noted the views of Luther and Calvin, along with those
of Roman Catholics, with a mere mention of Orthodox views. Nobody seems
to have mentioned Ulrich Zwingli, who had a notable debate with Brother
Martin. His view was shared by most of the Anabaptists, though they
recognize him as one of their chief persecuters. I think that the view
they shared would reject "means of grace," but recognize that remembering
the Lord's death is spiritually beneficial.
Dave (ASA)

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:28:31 +1100 Murray Hogg <muzhogg@netspace.net.au>
writes:
> Hi Coope,
>
> You wrote:
> I mention the former possible meaning to clarify Murray’s citing,
> > which I suspected might be considered an erroneous view of the SB
>
> > church, which it is not, I feel safe to say. Just trying to
> eschew
> > obfuscation. J
>
> Just to help eschew obfuscation; my remarks had nothing whatever to
> do with the SB church.
>
> They were taken from our own Baptist Union of Victoria doctrinal
> statement/constitution and merely reflect the facts that (1)
> Baptists don't speak as as a monolithic entity on the question at
> hand; and (2) the idea of sacraments as a means of grace can lurk
> behind the use of language which we might initially see as quite
> antithetical to that sort of view.
>
> So, I was speaking as an Australian - more specifically a Victorian
> - Baptist in order to make the point that whatever US Baptists might
> think on the question of the sacraments, there is one stream of
> Baptist thought (mine!) which certainly does NOT think "symbol only"
> is a valid theological point of view.
>
> Actually, as an overly lengthy aside, I have quite a difficult time
> trying to convince people of two points: first, that our Australian
> Baptist tradition ought to be traced back to UK rather than US
> Baptists - which point is important because it determines how one
> might legitimately appropriate or appeal to Baptist tradition in the
> Australian context. Second, that the UK Baptists were reacting not
> against Roman Catholicism but Anglicanism - which is important given
> that our (Australian) formulations of sacramental theology (among
> other things) need to be seen as standing across from Anglican
> rather than RC formulations. My stream of Baptist tradition, in
> other words, never really cared to argue against the idea of the RC
> Mass, its metaphysical assumptions and its soteriological
> implications for the simple reason that this simply wasn't the issue
> at hand. Indeed, some early Baptist statements of faith - the London
> Confession of 1644, for instance - don't even discuss the Lord
>
>
> 's Supper. Those that do treat it tend to be VERY cursory and for
> any substantial treatment of the nature of the Lord's Supper one
> should really turn to those for whom the matter was a substantial
> issue: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al with the Lutheran treatment
> being perhaps the most substantial.
>
> Need I add that the early UK Baptists would have essentially taken
> the Calvinist line? Indeed, it's interesting to note that by the
> time of the Second London Confession of c.1677 the Lord's Supper IS
> mentioned and the discussion is almost identical to that of the
> Westminster Confession (almost a "cut and paste"). In the
> Westminster Confession the essential point seems to me to be
> maintaining some idea of the Lord's Supper as REALLY efficacious
> (i.e. not merely "symbolic") but without ascribing "magical"
> properties to the elements. Point being that early English Baptists
> don't seem to have had much problem with the Anglican view of the
> Lord's Supper - they recognized that something significant happens
> in this sacrament and this significance does not rely upon an
> Aristotelian metaphysic by which the elements are endued with
> properties over and above that of ordinary bread and wine. In
> short, they seem to have been quite comfortable with the Anglican
> notion of sacrament in as
>
>
> much as it accepted the idea of the sacraments as a means of grace
> but rejected the more fanciful Roman Catholic speculations on the
> nature of the elements as well as the ritualistic accretions of the
> Roman Catholic mass (lifting up of the host, etc).
>
> But, back to the main point: no I WASN'T trying to say anything much
> about Southern Baptists - indeed, my whole response centers on the
> fact that while my position is Baptist it's NOT Southern Baptist and
> I no more speak for SB believers than they do for me! Certainly no
> Southern Baptist would consider our Victorian doctrinal statement
> authoritative and so my citing same certainly doesn't constitute
> "evidence" in regards of SB views on the matter.
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
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>
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Received on Thu Nov 6 22:09:37 2008