Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)

Hi Bernie,

Just to deal with a minor typo in your below - George was arguing that it is CORRECT to say that Protestants who hold the "symbol only" view are in error (which you know, of course, but it's the sort of thing which has great potential to confuse the discussion).

That said, I apologize for not properly grasping your argument - when you cited US church attendance figures, I clearly drew the wrong conclusion as to the point you were attempting to make. I now see you are basically putting the suggestion that 50k (approx) US Baptist church attendees indicates the nature of the Christian sacraments as a means of grace is open to serious question.

I will say, however, that I still feel quite justified in voicing some objection to even this for at least four reasons;

First, those figures were, I understand, for attendees not members - so there has to be some question as to whether the numbers reflect adherence to official creedal statements (indeed, even actual membership of a church may not prove much with respect to actual beliefs held).

Second, there's a quite serious question as to whether adherence to official creedal statements by the average church attendee is the outcome of any deep biblical or theological reflection.

Third, not all Baptists are "symbol only" sacramentalists.

Fourth, in terms of global and historical weight of numbers US Baptist church attendees are a trivially small minority.

So, the above taken together bring out the basic point of my objection: US Baptist church attendees are a minority Christian group of varying degrees of biblical and theological literacy whose views are unlikely to conform to official creedal formulae and thus it is simply wrong-headed to invoke such statistics as though it suggest that there is, within Christianity as a whole, any serious theological debate about the idea of the sacraments as a means of grace.

All that said, I realize that this may well be an issue within some strands of US Protestantism and it would be wrong of me to claim that US Christians don't consider such issues open to debate. But I do know something of the Australian and global scenes - the subject is not seriously debated in the Australian context, and I know of no serious debate on the matter in the global. It was as an Australian Christian with a familiarity of the global and historical perspective that I make the observation that invoking US Baptist church attendance figures in support of the claim that "Christianity has the sacraments in debate" doesn't seem to be putting the issue in correct perspective.

I'll only add that any debate around the sacraments seems really to center on HOW (and not IF) they are a means of grace - and even "symbol only" sacramentalists hold that there is SOME connection between sacrament and grace (a case of "how" not "if" they are connected). So this question of the sacraments as a means of grace is a vastly complicated issue which I'd really like to examine in more detail - not least for the science/faith implications to which George rightly draws attention.

Again, apologies for the inadvertent misconstrual of your position.

Blessings,
Murray Hogg
Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> Pastor Murray said:
> " I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you realize that you just effectively put the following argument; The Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United States - therefore their theology is correct."
>
> Nonsense. George said that it was a mistake to say that Protestants who saw communion as a "symbol only" were in error. I simply said that I think that that statement was an error. The opposite of one error isn't the other error- it is the middle ground. In other words, more clearly, I accept that Christianity has the sacraments in debate- and I wouldn't say it was an error to believe either way- just a genuine disagreement. The issue of science goes back to Christine's question of what happens when communion is absorbed by the body- and a fetus. By the way, I made a mistake when I said "Southern Baptist," meant to just say "Baptist," the bigger category.
>
> George said:
> " What "most protestants" believe depends on, among other things, who one includes as "protestant." But to get to the issue itself, yes, I think that those who reject the idea that the sacraments are means of grace, however they're categorized, are wrong. For whatever it's worth, the term "protestant" was first used of those who later would be called "Lutheran"
> because of their protest against imperial/Roman policy at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. The confession of the same group at the Diet of Augsburg the next year says, in its 9th article on baptism that "grace is offered through it,"
> and in Article 13 that the sacraments are instituted not only as outward signs but "in order thereby to awaken and strengthen our faith."
>
> So what you are saying is that Lutherans are the original protestants, but now Protestantism has been hijacked from them from people like the Baptists (as Baptists outnumber Lutherans as a protestant group)... probably so ... sorry about that ... ;-)
>
> All the protestants are trying to hijack the faith from the Catholics, the original Christians, too, right? ;-)
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:24 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you realize that you just effectively put the following argument;
>
> The Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United States - therefore their theology is correct.
>
> That's just WRONG on so many levels... ;)
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
>
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> Pastor Murray said: " ...could you expand a little on your thinking?"
>>
>> I think George was saying it was a "mistake" to not think that "the sacraments are a means of grace." My point- I think most Protestants reject the notion of "the sacraments are a means of grace." The link I gave showed the protestant denominations. The largest by far is Southern Baptist, who take communion as symbolic and not as a "means of grace." Therefore, I think it is a mistake to say it is a mistake, as George did, unless one thinks that most Protestants are wrong.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:39 PM
>> To: ASA
>> Subject: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)
>>
>> Hi Bernie,
>>
>> I'm not clear on the significance of the link you posted in the below - could you expand a little on your thinking?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Murray Hogg
>> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
>> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>>
>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>> George said: "The idea that there is some conflict between justification
>>> by faith and belief that the sacraments are means of grace is a basic
>>> error that afflicts many of the protestants you mention."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't the majority of Protestants reject "the sacraments are means of
>>> grace?" Looks that way to me, from this source:
>>>
>>> http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say "they have a basic error" but more likely accept it as a
>>> genuine disagreement within the Christian faith.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
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