Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy & Communio)

Bernie -

Please don't put words in my mouth. I pointed out that Lutherans were the
original protestants & that they taught (& still teach) that the sacraments
are means of grace. I said nothing about anybody "hijacking" anything. As
a 21st century Lutheran I am not especially attached to a "protestant" label
but have no objection to letting others describe themselves that way. In
significant ways (sacraments being among them) Lutherans are closer to Roman
Catholics than they are to some protestants. & the intention of the
Lutheran reformers was not to "hijack" anything from Rome or to form a new
church. Their purpose was to reform the church as it existed then in
western Europe. Thus Lutherans such as myself sometimes speak of
Lutheranism as "a reform movement within the church catholic." Put perhaps
over-simply, if Rome would accept the Augsburg Confession as a valid
expression of the Christian faith and recognize (perhaps with some nuances)
the validity of Lutheran ordinations then there would be no reason for the
Lutheran church to continue an independent existence. Of course those are
big ifs & I'm not holding my breath.

(Full disclosure requires me to say that not all Lutherans would agree with
that. We have our own spectrum of views.)

But the substantive issue has nothing to do with counting noses on one side
of the question or another. It is a question of whether or not in Baptism
and the Lord's Supper God actually does something for us. If so, the
sacraments are "means of grace" even if one doesn't want to use that
terminology. If not, if the sacraments are entirely things that we do,
and/or signs of something God does, then not. (& on that terminology see my
earlier distinction between "sign" and "symbol.")

Shalom
George
http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy &
Communio)

> Pastor Murray said:
> " I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you
> realize that you just effectively put the following argument; The
> Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United
> States - therefore their theology is correct."
>
> Nonsense. George said that it was a mistake to say that Protestants who
> saw communion as a "symbol only" were in error. I simply said that I
> think that that statement was an error. The opposite of one error isn't
> the other error- it is the middle ground. In other words, more clearly, I
> accept that Christianity has the sacraments in debate- and I wouldn't say
> it was an error to believe either way- just a genuine disagreement. The
> issue of science goes back to Christine's question of what happens when
> communion is absorbed by the body- and a fetus. By the way, I made a
> mistake when I said "Southern Baptist," meant to just say "Baptist," the
> bigger category.
>
> George said:
> " What "most protestants" believe depends on, among other things, who one
> includes as "protestant." But to get to the issue itself, yes, I think
> that those who reject the idea that the sacraments are means of grace,
> however they're categorized, are wrong. For whatever it's worth, the term
> "protestant" was first used of those who later would be called "Lutheran"
> because of their protest against imperial/Roman policy at the Diet of
> Speyer in 1529. The confession of the same group at the Diet of Augsburg
> the next year says, in its 9th article on baptism that "grace is offered
> through it,"
> and in Article 13 that the sacraments are instituted not only as outward
> signs but "in order thereby to awaken and strengthen our faith."
>
> So what you are saying is that Lutherans are the original protestants, but
> now Protestantism has been hijacked from them from people like the
> Baptists (as Baptists outnumber Lutherans as a protestant group)...
> probably so ... sorry about that ... ;-)
>
> All the protestants are trying to hijack the faith from the Catholics, the
> original Christians, too, right? ;-)
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:24 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy &
> Communio)
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> I'm not sure I can respond to this without sounding curt, but do you
> realize that you just effectively put the following argument;
>
> The Southern Baptist convention is the largest denomination in the United
> States - therefore their theology is correct.
>
> That's just WRONG on so many levels... ;)
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
>
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> Pastor Murray said: " ...could you expand a little on your thinking?"
>>
>> I think George was saying it was a "mistake" to not think that "the
>> sacraments are a means of grace." My point- I think most Protestants
>> reject the notion of "the sacraments are a means of grace." The link I
>> gave showed the protestant denominations. The largest by far is Southern
>> Baptist, who take communion as symbolic and not as a "means of grace."
>> Therefore, I think it is a mistake to say it is a mistake, as George did,
>> unless one thinks that most Protestants are wrong.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:39 PM
>> To: ASA
>> Subject: sacraments as means of grace (was Re: [asa] Pregnancy &
>> Communio)
>>
>> Hi Bernie,
>>
>> I'm not clear on the significance of the link you posted in the below -
>> could you expand a little on your thinking?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Murray Hogg
>> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
>> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>>
>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>> George said: "The idea that there is some conflict between justification
>>> by faith and belief that the sacraments are means of grace is a basic
>>> error that afflicts many of the protestants you mention."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't the majority of Protestants reject "the sacraments are means of
>>> grace?" Looks that way to me, from this source:
>>>
>>> http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't say "they have a basic error" but more likely accept it as a
>>> genuine disagreement within the Christian faith.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>
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Received on Thu Nov 6 13:07:11 2008