Re: [asa] Timaeus--ID isn't "god of the gaps" - farming

The example of farming, agriculture is indeed a step forward because we know farmers and agriculturists. It is, however, also a step away from 'intelligent design' arguments as they are currently formulated by 99% of ID proponents. This is a step toward human-social thought, given the cooperative aspect of human activity farming the land.

Jim writes: "a farmer preferentially selects seeds"
 
This act of 'preferential selecting' is not properly called 'evolution' or 'evolving.' Even if Daniel Dennett would argue otherwise, choices, selections and decisions are not evolutionary concepts. They do not fit into an overall evolutionary framework in a logical way; they perpetuate the myth of Total Evolution, e.g. which is mentioned on Craig Rusbult's ASA education page (now I read it says Total Macro-E).
 
This is precisely why I distinguish between 'human selection' and 'natural selection' and why I find a natural scientific approach that subsumes the category 'human' as simply 'another natural thing,' and thus a subject/object for natural science so bothersome. It denies the sovereign realm of communication about human-social things and by implication, threatens the sanctity of the human soul. This is what led A.R. Wallace to write an article on 'human selection' in contra-distinction to the term he co-coined with Darwin, 'natural selection.' He realized that, as Nietzsche wrote, "Darwin forgot the spirit."
 
Jim wrote: "he is imposing a selective process onto a bio-process."
 
Yes, this is what Darwin called 'artificial selection.' I would call it 'human selection' (in this case, in the field of farming, agriculture) cooperating with or working with a biological process.
 
Jim continues: "This sort of forced evolution is well known, exercised historically in farming, and is rooted in human intent."
 
Indeed, rooted in human intent. We are agreed about what you say, other than that I wouldn't call what is described as 'forced evolution,' because from my pov the word 'evolution' makes no sense when used in this context. But probably I'm still not convincing anyone out there of this or revealing why it matters to make an effort to purge 'evolution' from vocabularies used outside of biology and other natural sciences?  

In any case, thanks Jim, for taking this line of thought - farming, harvest, flourishing.
 
Gregory
 

--- On Thu, 11/6/08, Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net> wrote:

From: Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: [asa] Timaeus--ID isn't "god of the gaps"
To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Received: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:58 AM

To take this just one small step forward perhaps, if the example is farming instead, where a farmer preferentially selects seeds from individual instances of his crop that have some improvement in characteristics, then he is imposing a selective process onto a bio-process (which by its nature mutates to some extent). This sort of forced evolution is well known, exercised historically in farming, and is rooted in human intent.
 
JimA [Friend of ASA]

Nucacids wrote:

Hi Gregory,
 
"Yes, Mike, I think we are on the same page here. It makes no sense to speak of 'a mind using evolution to carry out an objective.'
 
I don't think we are on the same page, as an idea that makes no sense to you makes a lot of sense to me.  Minds enlist and recruit all sorts of processes to carry out objectives.  For example, the Casino owner uses games of chance to carry out the objective of making a profit.  Or, to offer a more relevant hypothetical, I have no trouble envisioning minds using evolution to carry out the objective of terraforming a planet.  Or carefully choosing the structure/architecture of life such that a nervous system was likely to evolve into existence. 
 
- Mike
 
 
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Received on Thu Nov 6 04:22:44 2008