RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for Gregory)

I had the same questions on Dick's view. There's a bunch of humans, but then Adam is the first to have an episode with God, which results in the fall. Then Adam and his family meet and mix with other humans who didn't experience the fall...?

In Dave's scenario, there is the fall of Adam, but other isolated people groups know nothing of this for thousands of years.

None of this sounds reasonable to me.

Evolution already proved one fact of the Biblical story wrong (Bible says Adam made from dust of the ground by fiat), so why not just interpret the rest of the story in the same way? Why rescue other parts of the story as if they are literal?

...Bernie

________________________________
From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:27 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for Gregory)

There is an aspect of Dick's thought that creates a graver problem. I can understand that the people who contacted Adam (his view) directly or indirectly, could learn to have a conscience or whatever it takes to be responsible before God. However, there were many tribes who were totally isolated from such contact on the Americas, Australia, the Pacific islands. Other tribes, such as those in the more distant areas of Africa, for example, would be unlikely to have the message relayed to them. The only way I can think of for these groups to have a conscience is for it to be "transmitted" to them merely through the fact that Adam existed. If this is the way that responsibility became part of every human being now alive, then the redemption in Christ should be transmitted similarly, so that all are now redeemed necessarily. If Dick can explain how anyone is unredeemed under his scenario, I'd like to hear it.
Dave (ASA)

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:06:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
Dick and I both agree that man evolved from an ape-like creature. The reason why is because of the overwhelming DNA evidence (pseudogenes and fused chromosome). However, Dick thinks there was a real historical Adam person and I don't. I just want to clarify that.

Dick, to be consistent, if you think Adam was a real person, then I think you should also believe that there really was a talking serpent and literal tree of life in a literal garden and that Eve was made literally from Adam's rib (Gen. 2), but I don't think you go that far, correct? A short response would be appreciated.

Gordon, yes I blur the distinction between human and non-human, as that is what evolution is- a blur. Supposedly something like 95% (99%?) of all animals (species) that ever lived are now extinct. Wacky critters (like the platypus), thanks to evolution. If man arose from ape-like creatures, it was very gradual. An ape didn't just give birth to a man, as YEC's seem to think evolution teaches. At the present moment- yes, big diff between animals and man, with (many) intermediates missing.

Gordon said: "This is just one area in Christian doctrine where in order to apply it it is necessary to know whether a creature is or is not human."

Today- we know we are human, made in the image of God, and sinners who need a savior. The details all vary according to your denomination or personal theology, and aren't necessary, I think.

..Bernie

________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 7:53 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for Gregory)

Hi Gordon,

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Man splits off from apes in the neighborhood of 6 million years ago becoming ape-man and then man-ape until Homo erectus emerges. Much later, Homo sapiens develop in Africa and spread out over the globe. The great races develop. Southern Mesopotamia, the land of the Tigris and Euphrates, remains unsettled until the advent of irrigation techniques. Up until roughly 7,000 years ago there is no accountability among any of the animal species including humans. Sin against God isn't possible by any living creature until God establishes his covenant with Adam in the Garden. This ushers in the era of accountability among humans with Adam being the first accountable human being. So salvation begins with Adam and sin begins with Adam. What's the problem?

Dick Fischer, GPA president

Genesis Proclaimed Association

"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"

www.genesisproclaimed.org<http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of gordon brown
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:26 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for Gregory)

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Dehler, Bernie wrote:

> I think with evolution there is no such thing as a "first man" since all species blur in the grey zone. There is no such thing as a line between human and non-human... it happened very gradually. Nevertheless, here we find ourselves as sinful humans made in the image of God. Animals don't sin (even if bears and tigers do kill each other simply for territory, rape, etc.).

>

Bernie,

I don't think you are being consistent here. First you blur the

distinction between human and nonhuman. Then you turn around and say that

humans sin but animals don't. This is just one area in Christian doctrine

where in order to apply it it is necessary to know whether a creature is

or is not human. The answer should not have to depend on a physical basis

for making the distinction.

Gordon Brown (ASA member)

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Received on Fri Aug 8 19:56:24 2008