RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for Gregory)

I can't reconcile what likely happened with what we would like to have
happened had we been in charge. Theology has to work its way around the
facts of Bible, science and history, we don't rearrange science and
history to fit our own particular theology based upon how we interpret
or misinterpret Scripture. That said, I can only guess how God
established his plan of salvation and what changed because Adam made a
bad choice. I can see little difference in the consequences for
geographically removed populations living at the time of Adam and those
living at the time of Christ, or even those living today. Whatever
arrangements applied to uninformed cultures living 2,000 years ago could
have applied 7,000 years ago.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of D. F. Siemens, Jr.
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:27 PM
To: bernie.dehler@intel.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
 
There is an aspect of Dick's thought that creates a graver problem. I
can understand that the people who contacted Adam (his view) directly or
indirectly, could learn to have a conscience or whatever it takes to be
responsible before God. However, there were many tribes who were totally
isolated from such contact on the Americas, Australia, the Pacific
islands. Other tribes, such as those in the more distant areas of
Africa, for example, would be unlikely to have the message relayed to
them. The only way I can think of for these groups to have a conscience
is for it to be "transmitted" to them merely through the fact that Adam
existed. If this is the way that responsibility became part of every
human being now alive, then the redemption in Christ should be
transmitted similarly, so that all are now redeemed necessarily. If Dick
can explain how anyone is unredeemed under his scenario, I'd like to
hear it.
Dave (ASA)
 
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:06:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
Dick and I both agree that man evolved from an ape-like creature. The
reason why is because of the overwhelming DNA evidence (pseudogenes and
fused chromosome). However, Dick thinks there was a real historical
Adam person and I don't. I just want to clarify that.
 
Dick, to be consistent, if you think Adam was a real person, then I
think you should also believe that there really was a talking serpent
and literal tree of life in a literal garden and that Eve was made
literally from Adam's rib (Gen. 2), but I don't think you go that far,
correct? A short response would be appreciated.
 
Gordon, yes I blur the distinction between human and non-human, as that
is what evolution is- a blur. Supposedly something like 95% (99%?) of
all animals (species) that ever lived are now extinct. Wacky critters
(like the platypus), thanks to evolution. If man arose from ape-like
creatures, it was very gradual. An ape didn't just give birth to a man,
as YEC's seem to think evolution teaches. At the present moment- yes,
big diff between animals and man, with (many) intermediates missing.
 
Gordon said: "This is just one area in Christian doctrine where in order
to apply it it is necessary to know whether a creature is or is not
human."
 
Today- we know we are human, made in the image of God, and sinners who
need a savior. The details all vary according to your denomination or
personal theology, and aren't necessary, I think.
 
..Bernie
 

  _____

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 7:53 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
 
Hi Gordon,
 
It seems pretty straight forward to me. Man splits off from apes in the
neighborhood of 6 million years ago becoming ape-man and then man-ape
until Homo erectus emerges. Much later, Homo sapiens develop in Africa
and spread out over the globe. The great races develop. Southern
Mesopotamia, the land of the Tigris and Euphrates, remains unsettled
until the advent of irrigation techniques. Up until roughly 7,000 years
ago there is no accountability among any of the animal species including
humans. Sin against God isn't possible by any living creature until God
establishes his covenant with Adam in the Garden. This ushers in the
era of accountability among humans with Adam being the first accountable
human being. So salvation begins with Adam and sin begins with Adam.
What's the problem?
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of gordon brown
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:26 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society, for
Gregory)
 
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
 
> I think with evolution there is no such thing as a "first man" since
all species blur in the grey zone. There is no such thing as a line
between human and non-human... it happened very gradually.
Nevertheless, here we find ourselves as sinful humans made in the image
of God. Animals don't sin (even if bears and tigers do kill each other
simply for territory, rape, etc.).
>
 
Bernie,
 
I don't think you are being consistent here. First you blur the
distinction between human and nonhuman. Then you turn around and say
that
humans sin but animals don't. This is just one area in Christian
doctrine
where in order to apply it it is necessary to know whether a creature is

or is not human. The answer should not have to depend on a physical
basis
for making the distinction.
 
Gordon Brown (ASA member)
 
 
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Received on Sat Aug 9 10:27:43 2008