The problem, Phil, is that in the flood account the wording is very
specific. It said all land-life was wiped-out except for those on the
ark. It is also specific about the length of the flood event- Noah
being shut-in for over a year in the ark. To go local would be to go
against the literal details of the story. But to go global would be to
deny modern science. The only thing left, for a believer, is to see it
as a myth to teach theological truths. That's my view- and I say "myth"
to be crystal clear that the option of any kind of actual flood (local
or global) really is not reasonable.
Some may argue "it is not a pure myth because some parts may be true,
like a real Noah person." But I think that's like saying part of the
story of Santa is true because there are such things as real Christmas
gifts.
...Bernie
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of philtill@aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:02 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood?
Hi Vernon,
the OT often uses language that sounds universal but wasn't meant to be
literally universal by the original author. Note this passage:
Gen.41:57, And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from
Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.
Did the Mayans in Central America and the Incas in South America go to
Egypt to buy grain? How did they find out that Egypt had grain, all the
way down in their kingdoms in Central and South America? How did they
get the news in time to travel across the ocean, buy grain, and bring
enough shiploads back to America in time before the famine was over?
How about the Polynesians, the Australians, the Eskimos (who don't even
eat bread), the Chinese? Did any of these far away countries literally
go to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph? But it says "all the countries"
and "all the world." What it meant was "all the countries in the
region" and "all the world [lands] around Egypt." There are many
examples like this in the OT. If you do a comprehensive survey of the
"universal-like" language in the OT, you'll never again believe that the
type of language describing the flood was really meant to tell us that
it was global.
If you are willing to accept that universal-sounding language isnt'
always universal, then it is easy to see how Gen.9 is promising the
availability of God's grace to all humans and yet was dealing with only
a local flood and was using symbols (Noah as a Christ-figure, the ark
being a picture of salvation). If you are unwilling, you can parse the
passage a hundred ways to "prove" a local flood is impossible and nobody
will be able to convince you otherwise. Thus, it has to be left as an
exercise for the reader to work it out for himself. :)
God bless!
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
To: asa@calvin.edu; philtill@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood?
Hi Phil,
Clearly, to believe the Mabbul to have been a _local_ flood is essential
to evolutionary assumptions. Hence the symbolic explanations you offer.
But how, then, do you suggest we read Gen 9: 9-17? God's covenant was,
and is, with _all_ flesh; local flooding, and death by flooding, are
facts of life. Can this covenant have any meaning unless Noah's flood
was indeed _global_?
Vernon
----- Original Message -----
From: philtill@aol.com
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood?
1. Why animals and birds?
"Noah" means "rest" in Hebrew, and he was the messiah-character
who was promised to bring rest to God's people. Noah didn't need to
take any animals at all, much less birds, but they symbolized how God
invites all peoples to be a part of his family. The diversity of the
animals implies God's inclusiveness in the offer of salvation. Noah
took _all_ the animals into God's salvation, the ark. It was also
intended to be ironic that the animals got on board but the people
didn't. This implies that the people _could_ have gotten on board if
they were willing, and thus it justifies the flood by showing that the
people were doomed by their own choice. So I don't see any problem in
taking the account literally that Noah took birds, etc., even though it
was a local flood. The actions were symbolic, not practical in any
sense.
2. Why build an ark instead of simply walk away from the
region?
I think we fail to see how important that region of the world
was. It was the first and greatest civilization, so a flood there would
be as symbolic as the terrorists had intended on September 11 at the
World Trade Center. God wouldn't have told Noah to simply walk away
because His purpose was not merely to save Noah but to make a symbolic
statement about the judgement of that glorious and abusive culture.
It was a really big deal when Abraham was told to leave southern
Mesopotamia, the center of the world, and to move to a land that God
hadn't even shown him, yet. Civilization had developed there over a
perod of some 5000 years, and Abraham left only about 4000 or 4500 years
ago. That puts Mesopotamia into perspective. The brevity of the first
11 chapters in the Bible make it seem like a short period of time and
hence unimportant. But to the people who lived at the tail-end of that
period, the sense of grandeur and the depth of time that they felt for
their world was surely no different than what we feel for the depth of
recorded history ever since. Imagine how big a deal it would be if the
Pope believed God told the Catholic church to leave Rome, or if the Jews
believed God told them to abandon Jerusalem, or if the Muslims took the
Ka'bah stone away from Mecca. Flooding Sumer, or leaving it to go to
Palestine, were both really, really big deals.
With that in mind, I think that when God told Noah that he would
never send another flood, he was only talking about the center of the
world, Mesopotamia. Then, that promise was fulfilled when God sent
Abraham away from its godlessness rather than flooding it again. I
think that the prophecy to never send another flood was intentionally
looking forward to Abraham in order to explain why he left. Rather than
send another flood, God sent his godly man out of the region because He
had promised not to flood it again. So Abraham, who could be considered
a second "Noah", did in fact simply walk away. The first Noah stayed
and demonstrated Christ's salvation symbolically. It was the second
Noah who simply walked..
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:35 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood?
William Hamilton said:
"Or as Bernie said, why didn't he just tell Noah to walk out of
the path of the flood (he had time -- all the time he and his sons were
building the ark)"
And doesn't it seem silly to load-up birds, which should be able
to easily fly away?
As for flying over a lake and seeing endless water- I know that
feeling. I've seen Lake Erie (sp?) many times, and it looks like an
ocean from the shore- and even when flying over it. But I guess when it
comes to a local flood hypothesis, there are lots of variations (which
animals on board or not, short or long duration, wiping out all humans
or not, etc.).
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists..calvin.edu] On Behalf Of William Hamilton
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 7:26 AM
To: philtill@aol.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood?
I like Phil's summary. The part about the ark being washed into
the Persian Gulf and being blown eastward makes a lot of sense. One
minor sticking point of course is that if God knew that the flood was
going to be local, why did He have Noah load all the animals onboard the
ark? Or as Bernie said, why didn't he just tell Noah to walk out of the
path of the flood (he had time -- all the time he and his sons were
building the ark)
--
William E (Bill) Hamilton Jr.
Rochester, MI/Austin, TX
248 821 8156
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Received on Fri Jun 27 18:23:30 2008
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