Re: undoing the past (Was Re: [asa] The Fall (humanity source of suffering)

Sorry about the empty post that just went. Here's the real one.

Dave -

Your 1st question seems directed more at Burgy than me. I'll just add that
1 of the points of my post was that the basic problem I see with his
suggestion has to do not with divine omnipotence but with the value of
creation.

On the 2d, both. God has created an orderly world & works within that order
but the Holy Spirit in particular is connected with spontaneity in the
world - the wind blows where it wills &c.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
To: <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
Cc: <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: undoing the past (Was Re: [asa] The Fall (humanity source of
suffering)

> Two questions. First, what does a human memory have to do with God's
> omnipotence or omniscience? Second, is God the source of order or whimsy?
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:29:14 -0600 "j burg" <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> writes:
>> On 6/19/08, George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Several things here.
>> >
>> > 1) I hope this isn't taken as a zap of anyone in particular or
>> an
>> > expression of personal pique but it seems symptomatic of a lot of
>> discussion
>> > on this list that the post I sent recently about Ted Peters book &
>> prolepsis
>> > has been ignored in favor of various other speculations. I.e.,
>> the well
>> > worked out ideas of a professional theologian are bypassed &
>> instead what
>> > gets discussed is various amateur "God might do this or that" blue
>> sky
>> > stuff.
>>
>> I plead guilty. That does not mean I ignored the Ted Peters post --
>> only that I had nothing particular to contribute to it.
>>
>> "amateur blue sky stuff" is (alas) what I do a lot of. Usually it
>> is
>> for the purpose of seeing if someone can shoot the ideas down -- or
>> turn them slightly into something different.
>>
>> >
>> > 2) When people talk about divine omnipotence they ought at least
>> to be
>> > aware of what the term means in the theological tradition. Its
>> primary
>> > import is not that "God could do anything" but that "God does do
>> > everything." I.e., God is the ultimate or "First" cause of
>> everything that
>> > happens in the world. Of course some people don't like that
>> concept because
>> > of theodicy issues (among others). But if you reject the idea
>> that God that
>> > God is the ultimate cause of everything then you are rejecting
>> divine
>> > omnipotence - as Charles Hartshorne did in his book Omnipotence
>> and Other
>> > Theological Mistakes.
>>
>> I read the Hartshorne book last year. My recollection is that it
>> was
>> interesting but not persuasive. Maybe I'll revisit it. (So many
>> books,
>> so little time). <G>
>>
>> > 3) The basic problem with the idea of God "undoing the past" is
>> not with
>> > omnipotence or whether God could do it but with the integrity &
>> goodness of
>> > creation. It's to be rejected for the same reason that the
>> Christian
>> > tradition has generally rejected reincarnation. Our bodies, our
>> physical
>> > makeups, matter to who we are & the physical makeup of the world -
>> including
>> > the results of past events - matter to what creation is.
>>
>> Possibly, unless one of the multiverse ideas is correct.
>>
>> In any case, someday (fairly soon for geezers like me) we will all
>> be
>> in a new life. The question haunts me -- will we remember the "bad
>> things?" How about the "bad people?" (I know -- we are all sinners,
>> but some of us have been touched by grace.)
>>
>> Will we remember the Holocaust? Both a "yes" and a "no" answer seem
>> strange.
>>
>> Will I remember a childhood friend who renounced Christ after the
>> YEC
>> views he had were falsified in college? Both a "yes" and a "no"
>> answer seem strange.
>>
>> I assume I'll remember the stupid things I've done. Will I also
>> remember my sins? Scripture says that God won't. Maybe I'm reading
>> that part wrong.
>>
>> In any case, as my web site story says, God once touched my family
>> and
>> we have been forever changed. The young boy (now 39) in that story
>> took us out for dinner last Friday and the young girl (now 37)
>> cooked
>> a Father's Day feast last Sunday. They have both blessed our lives
>> beyond measure.
>>
>> Burgy
>>
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>>
>>
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Received on Fri Jun 20 13:32:11 2008