Re: undoing the past (Was Re: [asa] The Fall (humanity source of suffering)

George,
You're right, it's just that I answered way down the line rather than
going back to Burgy's original post. As to the work of the Spirit, it is
that of a sovereign God. He is only self-restricted. Still, the Almighty
we worship is not capricious like the gods of the Greeks and Romans, for
example.
Dave

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:29:18 -0400 "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
writes:
> Sorry about the empty post that just went. Here's the real one.
>
> Dave -
>
> Your 1st question seems directed more at Burgy than me. I'll just
> add that
> 1 of the points of my post was that the basic problem I see with his
>
> suggestion has to do not with divine omnipotence but with the value
> of
> creation.
>
> On the 2d, both. God has created an orderly world & works within
> that order
> but the Holy Spirit in particular is connected with spontaneity in
> the
> world - the wind blows where it wills &c.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> To: <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> Cc: <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:54 PM
> Subject: Re: undoing the past (Was Re: [asa] The Fall (humanity
> source of
> suffering)
>
>
> > Two questions. First, what does a human memory have to do with
> God's
> > omnipotence or omniscience? Second, is God the source of order or
> whimsy?
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:29:14 -0600 "j burg"
> <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> > writes:
> >> On 6/19/08, George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Several things here.
> >> >
> >> > 1) I hope this isn't taken as a zap of anyone in particular
> or
> >> an
> >> > expression of personal pique but it seems symptomatic of a lot
> of
> >> discussion
> >> > on this list that the post I sent recently about Ted Peters
> book &
> >> prolepsis
> >> > has been ignored in favor of various other speculations.
> I.e.,
> >> the well
> >> > worked out ideas of a professional theologian are bypassed &
> >> instead what
> >> > gets discussed is various amateur "God might do this or that"
> blue
> >> sky
> >> > stuff.
> >>
> >> I plead guilty. That does not mean I ignored the Ted Peters post
> --
> >> only that I had nothing particular to contribute to it.
> >>
> >> "amateur blue sky stuff" is (alas) what I do a lot of. Usually
> it
> >> is
> >> for the purpose of seeing if someone can shoot the ideas down --
> or
> >> turn them slightly into something different.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > 2) When people talk about divine omnipotence they ought at
> least
> >> to be
> >> > aware of what the term means in the theological tradition.
> Its
> >> primary
> >> > import is not that "God could do anything" but that "God does
> do
> >> > everything." I.e., God is the ultimate or "First" cause of
> >> everything that
> >> > happens in the world. Of course some people don't like that
> >> concept because
> >> > of theodicy issues (among others). But if you reject the idea
> >> that God that
> >> > God is the ultimate cause of everything then you are rejecting
> >> divine
> >> > omnipotence - as Charles Hartshorne did in his book
> Omnipotence
> >> and Other
> >> > Theological Mistakes.
> >>
> >> I read the Hartshorne book last year. My recollection is that it
> >> was
> >> interesting but not persuasive. Maybe I'll revisit it. (So many
> >> books,
> >> so little time). <G>
> >>
> >> > 3) The basic problem with the idea of God "undoing the past"
> is
> >> not with
> >> > omnipotence or whether God could do it but with the integrity
> &
> >> goodness of
> >> > creation. It's to be rejected for the same reason that the
> >> Christian
> >> > tradition has generally rejected reincarnation. Our bodies,
> our
> >> physical
> >> > makeups, matter to who we are & the physical makeup of the
> world -
> >> including
> >> > the results of past events - matter to what creation is.
> >>
> >> Possibly, unless one of the multiverse ideas is correct.
> >>
> >> In any case, someday (fairly soon for geezers like me) we will
> all
> >> be
> >> in a new life. The question haunts me -- will we remember the
> "bad
> >> things?" How about the "bad people?" (I know -- we are all
> sinners,
> >> but some of us have been touched by grace.)
> >>
> >> Will we remember the Holocaust? Both a "yes" and a "no" answer
> seem
> >> strange.
> >>
> >> Will I remember a childhood friend who renounced Christ after
> the
> >> YEC
> >> views he had were falsified in college? Both a "yes" and a "no"
> >> answer seem strange.
> >>
> >> I assume I'll remember the stupid things I've done. Will I also
> >> remember my sins? Scripture says that God won't. Maybe I'm
> reading
> >> that part wrong.
> >>
> >> In any case, as my web site story says, God once touched my
> family
> >> and
> >> we have been forever changed. The young boy (now 39) in that
> story
> >> took us out for dinner last Friday and the young girl (now 37)
> >> cooked
> >> a Father's Day feast last Sunday. They have both blessed our
> lives
> >> beyond measure.
> >>
> >> Burgy
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >>
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Received on Fri Jun 20 17:26:51 2008