Re: [asa] Phillip Johnson quote on ID

Hi George,

"I was talking about ID as understood by those in the ID movement."

Then I do tend to agree with you that this "ID is primarily a religious movement trying - unsuccesfully - to clothe itself with science," although I think of it more as a cultural movement. Like I've said, its mirror image is the New Atheist movement. We live in a culture where Science is viewed as an Authority and both sides want to drape themselves in the White Lab Coat in order to advance their metaphysical views of what a society should look like.

"No, I don't think I "can place all of human inquiry/expression into two tidy boxes called 'Science' and 'Religion'." 1st, there's some overlap between science & religion but if ID isn't either then it isn't in their intersection. & 2d, there are other areas besides those. But is ID art? sports? literature?"

My own ID views are an invesigation, an inquiry, an expression of curiosity, an attempt to address a splinter in my mind.

It can help to liken them to a police investigation (although they are clearly not identical). A police investigation is an attempt to use empirical facts and our knowledge of other intelligent agents (humans) to determine what happened in the past. It is not purely subjective, but neither is it purely objective or science. It exists somewhere on the continuum between the subjective and objective and makes use of both. A police investigation can make use of scientific findings without itself becoming science. Just because a detective may use DNA fingerprinting as part of his investigation does not mean the detective is trying be a scientist or imply his investigation is science. Finally, the analogy helps us understand how I relate to critics/skeptics. Most critics/skeptics seek to pass judgment, wanting precise definitions, powerful evidence, and even a complete theory (otherwise, "there is"no evidence" (!) for ID"). But this is akin to playing the role of judge or jury, something that does not come into play until *after* the investigation is completed and deemed successful. The judge and jury do not pass judgment on the investigation *while it is in progress.* Only the investigators themselves are making judgment calls.

Then again, how would we classify all the submissions to the ASA list?

-Mike Gene

  I was talking about ID as understood by those in the ID movement.

  No, I don't think I "can place all of human inquiry/expression into two tidy boxes called 'Science' and 'Religion'." 1st, there's some overlap between science & religion but if ID isn't either then it isn't in their intersection. & 2d, there are other areas besides those. But is ID art? sports? literature?

  As you may have guessed, my question was largely rhetorical. ID is primarily a religious movement trying - unsuccesfully - to clothe itself with science.

  & on an even less respectful note, Johnson's language about ID "scientific people ... working out a positive theory" reminded me of the King and his magicians in Dr. Seuss's Bartholomew and the Oobleck, which I thought was the funniest book in the world when I was 7.

      "I wish," spoke the King, "to have you make something fall from my skies that no other kingdom has ever had before. What can you do? What will you make?"

      For a moment they stood thinking, blinking their creaky eyes. Then they spoke a word ... one word ... "Oobleck."

      "Oobleck ...?" asked the King. "What will it look like?"

      "Won't look like rain. Won't look like snow.
      Won't look like fog. That's all we know.
      We just can't tell you any more.
      We've never made oobleck before."

  Shalom
  George
  http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

    Hi George,

    "So if there isn't a scientific theory & it's not religion, what is it?"

    What do you mean by "it?" Are you talking about the ID Movement? Or a hypothesis that the original life forms were designed?

    Come to think of it, do you think you can place all of human inquiry/expression into two tidy boxes called 'Science' and 'Religion'?

    - Mike Gene

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George Murphy
      To: Jon Tandy ; 'ASA'
      Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:11 AM
      Subject: Re: [asa] Phillip Johnson quote on ID

      So if there isn't a scientific theory & it's not religion, what is it?

      Shalom
      George
      http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jon Tandy
        To: 'ASA'
        Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:30 AM
        Subject: [asa] Phillip Johnson quote on ID

        This was mentioned on your blog, but I don't recall that it's been quoted on this list. Phillip Johnson, as interviewed by Berkeley Science Review (http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution):

        ""I considered [Dover] a loser from the start. Where you have a board writing a statement and telling the teachers to repeat it to the class, I thought that was a very bad idea."

        "I also don't think that there is really a theory of intelligent design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that's comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite convinced that it's doable, but that's for them to prove.No product is ready for competition in the educational world."

        Jon Tandy

        From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of David Heddle
        Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:17 PM
        To: George Murphy
        Cc: David Opderbeck; ASA
        Subject: Re: [asa] Theistic Evolutionists Clos e Ranks - Let the Bloodletting Begin!

        Here is a recap of Miller's talk when he came to CNU:

        http://helives.blogspot.com/2008/03/kenneth-millers-cnu-talk.html

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Received on Wed Jun 18 11:23:27 2008