Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?

Hi, Bernie,

I don't know if my experience helps at all, but here it is for what it's worth.

I, too, swallowed the YEC stuff a few years back. It was at a time in
my life when I was really struggling to complete a part-time PhD
combined with a full-time job, and I was getting an increasing sense
of dread that I'd never complete it. So I wasn't thinking straight,
and when a colleague who was a YEC told me all about it, it seemed at
the time something to new to cling on to.

As time passed by, it became increasingly clear that the science
simply wasn't tenable & although I didn't like the tone that people
adopted towards me on the ASA listserv (I was accused of being
"incompetent" by a prominent member of this list), I did listen to
what was posted by some of the people who were more gracious in
presenting their opinions. And what they said was increasingly
disturbing and a bit of a threat to my faith.

The problem was that I'd swallowed the whole thing about "no death
before the fall", and this logically seemed to require that everything
was compressed into the 6000 year timescale, and so for a while I
clung on to that, thinking "I don't care what those awful people on
the ASA list have to say, I'm still going to stick to this or else it
all falls apart". But I knew that this wasn't being honest with
myself.

Eventually the resolution for me came through thinking about
scripture, rather than about science. On an evening walk, I started
pondering about Nicodemus in John ch 3 and his naive question "can a
man enter his mother's womb a second time and be born again". He got
very clearly told by Jesus that it wasn't that kind of birth that was
being referred to; it was a spiritual, rather than a physical rebirth.
 And by the same token, it seemed (and still does seem) to me that the
"death" that entered the world through the Fall wasn't "that kind of
death". In John 3:16 we are promised that whoever believes _shall not
perish_ but have everlasting life. But we still die physically, of
course, so it's "not that sort of perish".

I tend to be nervous of people who say "the Holy Spirit told me....",
but at the time, it felt like a direct revelation - that God had drawn
my attention to that passage in the Bible because of the problems I
was having, and showed me a different way to look at it. The sense of
RELIEF was enormous - that I didn't have to worry any more about the
world being billions of years old. There was this fantastic feeling
that I didn't have to feel trapped into being intellectually dishonest
in order to preserve my faith. (I'm referring to myself when I say
"intellectually dishonest" and not making implications about others; I
was certainly being dishonest with myself).

Doubtless many YEC's would disagree with me and say that physical AND
spiritual death were the result of the Fall - but I don't see myself
that this necessarily follows.

Bernie, I hope and pray that these observations are of some help.
They certainly helped me! And it helps you to think carefully about
what it means to be "born again".

BTW I passed the PhD with flying colours as well ;-)

Iain

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> David said:
> "Did the person who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity
> altogether really trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his
> faith only in a set of propositions?"
>
>
>
> It is like my struggle. I know Christ as well as any born-again Christian.
> Yet, I also pretty much accepted that there was a first human named Adam.
> Since accepting evolution, I think it makes sense to drop a literal first
> human named Adam. The problem is, the Bible treats this Adam guy really
> seriously, even putting him into geneologies. I almost fell-away, but at
> times am still teetering on the edge. I'm still studying. I'm considering
> it may be impossible to reconcile evolution with Christianity, esp. after
> reading the latest ASA Perspectives article called "Optimistic
> Evolutionists: The Progressive Science and religion of Joseph LeConte, Henry
> Ward Beecher, and Lyman Abbott."
>
>
>
> It is like what I learned in my seminary class- Darwinism is a universal
> acid that eats away at everything (philosophical and theological)…
>
>
>
> If I fall away, it would be because Christianity, and the Bible, don't make
> sense in light of evolution. It sounds scary to say, but I am determined to
> follow the truth wherever it leads. I have faith in Christ, but my theology
> is very liquid at this point.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:41 AM
> To: Bill Hamilton
> Cc: j burg; Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?
>
>
>
> Bill, you make what I think is a very helpful point here, one which many
> folks often make: our faith is centrally about Christ. I wonder if the
> "blame" isn't so much on any particular view of origins as it is on a highly
> rationalist version of the faith elevates certain propositions, including
> but not least about scripture, above the person of Christ. Did the person
> who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity altogether really
> trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his faith only in a set
> of propositions?
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Bill Hamilton <williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Burgy wrote
>
>> Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are
>> to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He
>> has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim.
>
> I certainly agree with Glenn that YECism can be a factor in an individual
> departing from the faith. (As a former Arminian I cannot agree with the
> Calvinist accusation that Arminians believe one can _lose_ his faith. In the
> Wesleyan church I came to know the Lord in we believed that an individual
> could willfully depart from the faith. But _lose_ it? Never)
>
> But my own experience might serve as a counterexample. I encountered YECism
> shortly after I became a Christian. I decided to investigate it and believed
> it for a time. But I soon discovered a number of flaws in it. At that point
> I had to make a decision, and I decided that no matter what I believed about
> creationism, I believed in Jesus Christ, my savior.
>
>
> William E. (Bill) Hamilton, Ph.D. Member ASA
> 248.821.8156 (mobile)
> "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31
> http://www.bricolagia.blogspot.com/
> Want to help a child?:
> http://www.compassion.com/sponsor/index.asp?referer=85198
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: j burg <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
>> To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>> Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:31:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?
>>
>
>> On 6/4/08, Dehler, Bernie wrote: (in part)
>>
>> > Imagine this, you hear a report at church that 10 kids accepted Christ
>> > in the 3rd grade Sunday School. Everyone claps.>
>> > Fast forward 10 years, and you hear that the kid who entered college
>> > just left the faith because they now believe in evolution.>
>> > Who's to blame, the evolutionist who is teaching the lie of evolution,
>> > or the church who says that evolution is a lie?
>> >>
>> Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are
>> to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He
>> has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim.
>>
>> I have but one example -- a high school close friend who was a
>> witnessing Christian whem I was not -- who lost his faith in college
>> when he found out the YEC stuff he believed was wrong. Dick went on to
>> a career as an executive with Pitney Bowles (sp?) and is now retired,
>> living in Florida, a confirmed atheist.
>>
>> I think (and pray) for him on occasion. Sad.
>>
>> > I'm thinking more about this because I'm offering to teach a class at
>> > church, and am anticipating the push-back... I think there is a faction
>> > that wants to keep everyone in slumber.
>> >
>> I hope you are successful. I have taught such a class several times
>> (see my web site for material). On the last occasion the regular
>> teacher was (and probably is) a YEC. But she was willing to at least
>> give me equal time (three weeks).
>>
>
>> Burgy
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
>
> --
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

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