Re: [asa] The God hypothesis- a test

I think RC's critique of the "prayer efficacy" surveys that come along from
time to time is generally valid. James 5:16, for example, speaks of the
"effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man" -- not just any old prayer by
anyone.

But I think there's also something in what you're saying here, Bernie. Even
when James says that the sort of prayer he describes "avails much," the
person who is praying as James describes probably ends up with a very
different understanding of what "avails" means than the health-and-wealth
orientation underlying many of these surveys. It may be that are prayers
sometimes "avail" in ways that are impossible to see and measure materially.

I also have some sympathy for what you're saying about human logic as a
measurement or test of God. I think we can reasonably expect that God has
given us minds that are capable of thinking about him in rational terms,
though even then only analogically. However, IMHO, something is out of
whack when analytic philosophers require that something ineffable like the
Trinity satisfy the rules of formal logic. I don't think God is insulted or
displeased by efforts to increase our rational conception of Him, but I
suspect that human beings who think they have a logical box that can exclude
God seem to Him like buzzing gnats.

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
wrote:

> So RC, suppose you were able to hand-pick the test groups. Group 1 was
> Christians, trained in prayer as you suggest. Group 2 is avowed
> atheists. Group 3 is a control group mixed with unknown people. Do you
> think you could conduct a test to show that God is real because he
> answers pray, even sometimes, and show it statistically?
>
> Also, if you could do such a test, would it displease God? Jesus said
> "don't put the Lord your God to the test" when tested by Satan in the
> desert. But in Malachi God says "test me in this..." in regards to
> tithing; and in Isaiah he mocks those who are superstitious and says
> "come let us reason together." My atheist friend said something
> interesting, that God doesn't want to be tested because He's not there,
> and a test would prove it. Would God be insulted or displeased in a
> test of his existence? By the way, people who debate and show evidence
> of God using logic, such as William Lane Craig and others (like CS
> Lewis), isn't that a way of "testing God" to see if He holds water
> logically? The assumption is that if God didn't pass "logical tests"
> then He wouldn't be worth believing in, like the invisible pink unicorn
> or the flying spaghetti monster.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RC Metcalf [mailto:rcmetcalf@thinkagain.us]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 6:19 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] The God hypothesis- a test
>
> I have yet to see a scientific test designed to study the efficacy of
> prayer
> that is able to control all outside factors. I don't think such a test
> is
> possible, which is why I think testing for God's existence from
> sociobiologic prayer studies is misguided. There are other, more
> reasonable, methods of testing for God's existence.
>
> If you consider the biblical criteria for prayer suggested by the late
> 19th
> century Princeton theologian Charles Hodge, the inadequacy of prayer
> studies
> becomes self evident. Hodge said effective payer must exhibit:
>
> 1. Sincerity
> 2. Reverence
> 3. Humility
> 4. Importunity
> 5. Submission
> 6. Faith
> 7. Asking in the name of Christ
>
> Dawkins, Harris and Stenger all cite the same prayer study in their
> books.
> If I recall accurately, that study had people in various cities in the
> country pray for people they didn't know, except by first name. Even if
>
> every other factor existed, I submit that it is impossible to pray with
> sincerity and importunity under such circumstances. I think many modern
>
> Christians have adopted a more lackadaisical approach to prayer than we
> ought, hence we aren't as apt to recognize the importance of importunity
> in
> our prayer life unless we're thrown into the middle of a dire situation
> and
> the target of our prayers is someone dear to us.
>
> Blessings,
> RC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:24 PM
> Subject: [asa] The God hypothesis- a test
>
>
> Hi all-
>
> A scientific question about God. Is it possible to test for the
> existence of the Christian God? Here's a scenario.
>
> Hypothesis: Those who are born-again Christians are born of the Spirit
> and have a new relationship with God. They can pray to God, and God
> will sometimes answer their prayers.
>
> Test: Take two groups. One group has self-identified born-again
> Christians, the other are self-described atheists. Both groups
> write-down their goals (career, medical needs, etc.) The Christian prays
> for their needs, while the atheist doesn't. Then see if there is a
> statistical difference. (This is a broad outline; a real test would
> have much tighter rules and controls.)
>
> If God exists, wouldn't this "catch Him in the act?" Is this a valid
> test and hypothesis? I'm vaguely aware that some have actually tried
> such a hypothesis/test (similar) and saw no statistical difference. If
> there's no difference between the groups, does that mean that either God
> doesn't exist, or God doesn't care (as Jesus taught that God our father
> cares for us)?
>
>
>
>
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-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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