Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)

Why may I not squeeze all the joy possible out of the present moment
because I am sure that my time is limited? Indeed, with no judgment to
face, is there not more possibility of current joy? Why is life futile
because it is short? Is there no pleasure in the thought that one will be
remembered with pleasure rather than with horror? I think you've assumed
too many unwarranted negatives.
Dave (ASA)

On Tue, 6 May 2008 12:33:23 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
David said:
"I'm enjoying sitting at my desk right now as the spring breeze blows
through the trees outside."
 
But as an atheist, can you only do that as long as you put the idea out
of your head that everything is futile? I think so. Maybe you can enjoy
the moment because you are not burdened with the thought of a coming
destruction, since you are a believer.
 
What about those who never heard of the gospel or loved ones who will
burn in hell because they reject Christ? I guess that depends on your
theology. Personally, my theology says “I know the way, but I don’t know
what happens to all the others.”
 
It is like this. Suppose we are all in a pit and need to be rescued.
Someone throws down a rope to us. I can say I know the way out and take
advantage of it. But what about those who don’t know or don’t care or
reject the rope? Some say they will die. I don’t know—I just know the
way out, and will deal with that.
 
…Bernie
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 12:22 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
 
I dunno -- I think I'm a bit of an existentialist even though I'm a
Christian, so "What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go
to nothing" just isn't very compelling to me. I'm enjoying sitting at
my desk right now as the spring breeze blows through the trees
outside. I enjoy biting into a juicy, just-grilled cheeseburger and
washing it down with a cold beer. I enjoy laughing at my little boy's
silly jokes as we grill marshmallows by the fire pit. I enjoy
snuggling up with my wife. These are little self-contained moments of
enjoyment that don't necessarily depend on any overarching religious
worldview. I could understand a philosophy of just living
moment-to-moment like this.
 
And I'm not so sure it's immediately self-evident that a Christian
worldview is better than a moment-to-moment existentialism. On the
one hand, a view of a broader, eternal purpose can make those little
moments even more enriching -- I can have a moment, when I'm laughing
with my boys under the stars by the fire, of transcendence, what C.S.
Lewis called experiencing the numinous, when I sense the creator of
all things laughing along and extending that laughter into eternity.
 
On the other hand, sometimes the weight of eternity can rob moments
like that of their joy. For what if my little boys grow up to reject
Christ, either despite my best efforts or because I fail them? And
what of my youngest boy, who can't understand words very well because
of a neurological impairment -- will he be able to hear and receive
the gospel, or is this little person whose life I value far more than
my own already doomed? And what of my friends and neighbors, and the
billions around the world who will never hear of Christ? How can I
enjoy my marshmallow believing they will suffer the torments of hell
for eternity? And this is not to mention the intellectual and
emotional demands of trying to understand an ancient, authoritative
scripture while living in a modern, scientific age in a community of
fellow believers who don't even recognize why this represents a
tension.
 
Lest the atheists lurking here take aid and comfort from this, I still
think a Christian worldview is richer than existentialism, maybe
precisely because it causes me to grapple with this kind of question,
and even more because I'm convinced of the beauty of the Christ who
has made himself known to me. But I'd never do so far as to say that
atheists can't live meaningful lives.
 
 
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> First- I did not give that Scripture as a back-up to my point. It was
an add-on trying to tie the issue of resurrection with meaning for life.
>
>
>
> Second- my point had nothing to do with the 'basis for morality
argument."
>
>
>
> Third- my point had everything to do with the "meaning of life" and
"purpose of life."
>
>
>
> David said:
> "If nothing else, many would say, "my reason for living is that I enjoy
life -- what more do I need?""
>
>
>
> I used to think that Atheists could think that and be ok with it. Then
I heard an atheist philosopher saying that that viewpoint was nonsense
and folly. What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go to
nothing? It is like trying to enjoy a good dance or food on the Titanic
as it is sinking. How can you truly enjoy anything knowing it is
temporary and fleeting? If you were sent to be executed, could you
really enjoy your last meal, no matter how fancy it was and who you dined
with? Only if you shut-out of your mind the coming destruction… and that
is what atheists have to do in order to feel ok. I'm suggesting to open
that up, like opening a tightly bandaged wound, so it can get some air
and possibly heal. This hope for eternal life is built into all humans
(you might argue animals, also, in the will to live).
>
>
>
> I would love to press people like Dawkins and really get into their
head to see how they respond to the emptiness and futility of life, in
their mindset. I think they do it by suppressing thoughts about it… so I
wonder what would happen when that thought is dug-up and exposed to
light.
>
>
>
> And George- if God died, then I guess it is "every man for himself."
We'd live in such a way as to try to have a well-functioning
society—relying totally on logic and reason, as the atheists do now.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
 
>
> From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:47 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think this is a fair question in many ways, Bernie, but I don't think
1 Cor. 15 is the right text. The context there is whether Christians,
who base their lives and eternal hopes around belief in the risen Christ,
have wasted their lives if Christ hasn't been raised -- and Paul's answer
is a resounding yes. But if Christ has not been raised, that doesn't
mean non-Christians have no hope -- in fact, they would presumably have
more hope than us -- v. 19, "If only for this life we have hope in
Christ, we are to be pitied above all men," suggests clearly that others
would be better off than us in that event. So the point in this
particular passage isn't that unbelievers have no hope; it's that
believers in Christ have hope in Chirst only if Christ really was raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> If I were an atheist, I'd get really annoyed by "you have no reason for
living" and "you have no basis for your morality" arguments. Of course
many atheists can articulate reasons for living and reasons for morality;
they aren't all dark nihlists who are ready to hang themselves. If
nothing else, many would say, "my reason for living is that I enjoy life
-- what more do I need?" and "my basis for morality is that everyone
should have a shot at enjoying life -- why do I have to explain myself
further to you?"
>
>
>
>
>
> IMHO, reason for living / reason for morality arguments shouldn't be
played as argumentative trump cards. They should be offered, I think, in
ways that show the winsomeness of a living faith in Christ. Hopefully
the atheist will be attracted to the living Christ and realize the even
deeper, even richer, even more meaningful prospect of a life of faith.
>
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Dehler, Bernie
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
> You might want to ask Dan Barker what reason for living he has. I've
> heard the atheist response is "live for the moment" because that is all
> you have, but I've heard other philosophers say that that is even
> meaningless. I think they can only survive by blocking the question
out
> of their mind. Everyone has the hope for eternal life in some way,
even
> if it is a closet fantasy. Without that hope of eternal life,
> everything is futile. We come from nothing and go to nothing.
>
> 1 Cor. 15:
> 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has
been
> raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless
> and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false
> witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised
> Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are
> not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been
> raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is
> futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen
> asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in
> Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of rcmetcalf@thinkagain.us
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:50 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: [asa] Feedback wanted
>
> Hi All,
>
> I only recently joined this mailing list after a visit with Randy
Isaac.
> I've been a member of ASA for quite a while, but somehow missed these
> discussions (in part because my time is rather full already!). Randy
> urged
> me to join and I've enjoyed following some of the threads.
>
> Since many of you have backgrounds in physics, I have a small
request...
> My visit with Randy was preceded by an invitation to Tufts to debate
Dan
> Barker on the Resurrection. I recently placed my opening presentation
> for
> the debate on YouTube.com. I was hoping some of you might be willing to
> look at it and offer feedback here in a thread. Constructive criticism,
> comments, praise, etc... are all welcome. The video had to be split
into
> four parts since YouTube has a 10 minute upload limit. The total time
is
> around 35 minutes. Search for Tufts Metcalf-Barker Debate to find it.
>
> I'll be lecturing on this on Saturday at New Life Church here in
> Colorado
> Springs, so your feedback will be quite valuable. Thank you so much!
>
> Blessings & grace,
> RC Metcalf
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
 
 
 

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
 
 
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