Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)

Bernie said: But as an atheist, can you only do that as long as you
put the idea out of
> your head that everything is futile? I think so.

I respond: to play devil's advocate here, I think a fair response
from an atheist is,"no, I don't think it's 'futile' -- I think
enjoyment is a good end in itself, period. If you think otherwise,
that's fine, I'll just shrug my shoulders and enjoy the evening."

Bernie said: I guess that depends on your theology. Personally, my
theology says "I know the way, but I don't know what happens to all
the others."

I respond: again, to play devil's advocate here, I think a fair
response from an atheist is, "it's nice that you can pick and choose
like that, but that isn't really Christianity anymore, is it? What
you have is a private belief about yourself that you find comforting;
good for you, but why should I care about your private belief?"

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> David said:
> "I'm enjoying sitting at my desk right now as the spring breeze blows
> through the trees outside."
>
>
>
> But as an atheist, can you only do that as long as you put the idea out of
> your head that everything is futile? I think so. Maybe you can enjoy the
> moment because you are not burdened with the thought of a coming
> destruction, since you are a believer.
>
>
>
> What about those who never heard of the gospel or loved ones who will burn
> in hell because they reject Christ? I guess that depends on your theology.
> Personally, my theology says "I know the way, but I don't know what happens
> to all the others."
>
>
>
> It is like this. Suppose we are all in a pit and need to be rescued.
> Someone throws down a rope to us. I can say I know the way out and take
> advantage of it. But what about those who don't know or don't care or
> reject the rope? Some say they will die. I don't know—I just know the way
> out, and will deal with that.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of David Opderbeck
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 12:22 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
>
>
> I dunno -- I think I'm a bit of an existentialist even though I'm a
>
> Christian, so "What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go
>
> to nothing" just isn't very compelling to me. I'm enjoying sitting at
>
> my desk right now as the spring breeze blows through the trees
>
> outside. I enjoy biting into a juicy, just-grilled cheeseburger and
>
> washing it down with a cold beer. I enjoy laughing at my little boy's
>
> silly jokes as we grill marshmallows by the fire pit. I enjoy
>
> snuggling up with my wife. These are little self-contained moments of
>
> enjoyment that don't necessarily depend on any overarching religious
>
> worldview. I could understand a philosophy of just living
>
> moment-to-moment like this.
>
>
>
> And I'm not so sure it's immediately self-evident that a Christian
>
> worldview is better than a moment-to-moment existentialism. On the
>
> one hand, a view of a broader, eternal purpose can make those little
>
> moments even more enriching -- I can have a moment, when I'm laughing
>
> with my boys under the stars by the fire, of transcendence, what C.S.
>
> Lewis called experiencing the numinous, when I sense the creator of
>
> all things laughing along and extending that laughter into eternity.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, sometimes the weight of eternity can rob moments
>
> like that of their joy. For what if my little boys grow up to reject
>
> Christ, either despite my best efforts or because I fail them? And
>
> what of my youngest boy, who can't understand words very well because
>
> of a neurological impairment -- will he be able to hear and receive
>
> the gospel, or is this little person whose life I value far more than
>
> my own already doomed? And what of my friends and neighbors, and the
>
> billions around the world who will never hear of Christ? How can I
>
> enjoy my marshmallow believing they will suffer the torments of hell
>
> for eternity? And this is not to mention the intellectual and
>
> emotional demands of trying to understand an ancient, authoritative
>
> scripture while living in a modern, scientific age in a community of
>
> fellow believers who don't even recognize why this represents a
>
> tension.
>
>
>
> Lest the atheists lurking here take aid and comfort from this, I still
>
> think a Christian worldview is richer than existentialism, maybe
>
> precisely because it causes me to grapple with this kind of question,
>
> and even more because I'm convinced of the beauty of the Christ who
>
> has made himself known to me. But I'd never do so far as to say that
>
> atheists can't live meaningful lives.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > First- I did not give that Scripture as a back-up to my point. It was an
> add-on trying to tie the issue of resurrection with meaning for life.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Second- my point had nothing to do with the 'basis for morality argument."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Third- my point had everything to do with the "meaning of life" and
> "purpose of life."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > David said:
>
> > "If nothing else, many would say, "my reason for living is that I enjoy
> life -- what more do I need?""
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I used to think that Atheists could think that and be ok with it. Then I
> heard an atheist philosopher saying that that viewpoint was nonsense and
> folly. What is there to enjoy if you come from nothing and go to nothing?
> It is like trying to enjoy a good dance or food on the Titanic as it is
> sinking. How can you truly enjoy anything knowing it is temporary and
> fleeting? If you were sent to be executed, could you really enjoy your last
> meal, no matter how fancy it was and who you dined with? Only if you
> shut-out of your mind the coming destruction… and that is what atheists have
> to do in order to feel ok. I'm suggesting to open that up, like opening a
> tightly bandaged wound, so it can get some air and possibly heal. This hope
> for eternal life is built into all humans (you might argue animals, also, in
> the will to live).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I would love to press people like Dawkins and really get into their head
> to see how they respond to the emptiness and futility of life, in their
> mindset. I think they do it by suppressing thoughts about it… so I wonder
> what would happen when that thought is dug-up and exposed to light.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > And George- if God died, then I guess it is "every man for himself." We'd
> live in such a way as to try to have a well-functioning society—relying
> totally on logic and reason, as the atheists do now.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > …Bernie
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ________________________________
>
>
>
> >
>
> > From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:47 AM
>
> > To: Dehler, Bernie
>
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I think this is a fair question in many ways, Bernie, but I don't think 1
> Cor. 15 is the right text. The context there is whether Christians, who
> base their lives and eternal hopes around belief in the risen Christ, have
> wasted their lives if Christ hasn't been raised -- and Paul's answer is a
> resounding yes. But if Christ has not been raised, that doesn't mean
> non-Christians have no hope -- in fact, they would presumably have more hope
> than us -- v. 19, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to
> be pitied above all men," suggests clearly that others would be better off
> than us in that event. So the point in this particular passage isn't that
> unbelievers have no hope; it's that believers in Christ have hope in Chirst
> only if Christ really was raised.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If I were an atheist, I'd get really annoyed by "you have no reason for
> living" and "you have no basis for your morality" arguments. Of course many
> atheists can articulate reasons for living and reasons for morality; they
> aren't all dark nihlists who are ready to hang themselves. If nothing else,
> many would say, "my reason for living is that I enjoy life -- what more do I
> need?" and "my basis for morality is that everyone should have a shot at
> enjoying life -- why do I have to explain myself further to you?"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > IMHO, reason for living / reason for morality arguments shouldn't be
> played as argumentative trump cards. They should be offered, I think, in
> ways that show the winsomeness of a living faith in Christ. Hopefully the
> atheist will be attracted to the living Christ and realize the even deeper,
> even richer, even more meaningful prospect of a life of faith.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > You might want to ask Dan Barker what reason for living he has. I've
>
> > heard the atheist response is "live for the moment" because that is all
>
> > you have, but I've heard other philosophers say that that is even
>
> > meaningless. I think they can only survive by blocking the question out
>
> > of their mind. Everyone has the hope for eternal life in some way, even
>
> > if it is a closet fantasy. Without that hope of eternal life,
>
> > everything is futile. We come from nothing and go to nothing.
>
> >
>
> > 1 Cor. 15:
>
> > 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been
>
> > raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless
>
> > and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false
>
> > witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised
>
> > Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are
>
> > not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been
>
> > raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is
>
> > futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen
>
> > asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in
>
> > Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>
> > Behalf Of rcmetcalf@thinkagain.us
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:50 AM
>
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
>
> > Subject: [asa] Feedback wanted
>
> >
>
> > Hi All,
>
> >
>
> > I only recently joined this mailing list after a visit with Randy Isaac.
>
> > I've been a member of ASA for quite a while, but somehow missed these
>
> > discussions (in part because my time is rather full already!). Randy
>
> > urged
>
> > me to join and I've enjoyed following some of the threads.
>
> >
>
> > Since many of you have backgrounds in physics, I have a small request...
>
> > My visit with Randy was preceded by an invitation to Tufts to debate Dan
>
> > Barker on the Resurrection. I recently placed my opening presentation
>
> > for
>
> > the debate on YouTube.com. I was hoping some of you might be willing to
>
> > look at it and offer feedback here in a thread. Constructive criticism,
>
> > comments, praise, etc... are all welcome. The video had to be split into
>
> > four parts since YouTube has a 10 minute upload limit. The total time is
>
> > around 35 minutes. Search for Tufts Metcalf-Barker Debate to find it.
>
> >
>
> > I'll be lecturing on this on Saturday at New Life Church here in
>
> > Colorado
>
> > Springs, so your feedback will be quite valuable. Thank you so much!
>
> >
>
> > Blessings & grace,
>
> > RC Metcalf
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > David W. Opderbeck
>
> > Associate Professor of Law
>
> > Seton Hall University Law School
>
> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> David W. Opderbeck
>
> Associate Professor of Law
>
> Seton Hall University Law School
>
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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