Re: [asa] Humanity and the Fall: Questions and a Survey

Gregory, you asked when to involve history? I would say that the story of
the fall helps us with four major worldview questions: Who are we? Where
are we from? What is the problem? What is the solution?
The fall narrative is historical in that once there was no sin on this
planet, and now there is sin due to human choice. It is also historical in
that it speaks of a God who, from the very beginning, has been working with
humans for their redemption. And the story should absolutely be labeled
"unscientific", to not do so would be to completely ignore the genre of the
passage and its function in both the Israelite and the ANE context.

David, yes, scripture does suggest that all of creation was corrupted by the
fall. But that is rather unclear in meaning. Paul also suggests that death
entered the world through Adam, but this surely can't be taken literally,
not only because of the fossil records, but because throughout those same
passages, Paul is saying things like "I die daily, I mean that brothers!".
Can I ask you to unfold the sentence you brought out? Your phrase
"the relational brokenness of the fall resulted in a corruption of the telos
of creation" confuses me because I'm not sure of what you mean by the "telos
of creation". What was this before 'the fall', and what is it now? What
should creation look like?

Bethany

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Bethany wrote:
>
> "if we see the fall as the entrance of human sin and the brokenness of
> human relationship (with God, man, and creation) then we're clear."
>
> Yes, this is the 'non-literal' or ahistorical viewpoint. The question is
> when to involve history in the biblical account, not just concerning origins
> (of life and of human beings), but concerning all events, persons, ideas and
> meanings presented therein. Bethany, does your conception of 'the fall' have
> no historical referent whatsoever, and if so, then how does it have any
> binding relevance on the sinfulness of humankind today? We may be 'clear' in
> a metaphorical sense, but is 'the fall' then just symbolic or figurative?
>
> Such a view as what you've written above is easily called 'just a story,'
> as 'unscientific,' or worse, as 'an oppressive illusion' invented to make
> people feel guilty for the purpose of control by church leaders. Please
> don't confuse me, I don't subscribe to these three latter positions. But
> they are not so difficult to propose when using the ahistorical perspective
> you've outlined. You need to show when non-history becomes history (as for
> example, George M. recently said that [paraphrased] human history begins
> with Abraham). - Gregory
>
>
> *Bethany Sollereder <bsollereder@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> Thanks Rich, this is good stuff.
>
> In relation to the fall, I think we should also be explicit about what we
> mean by "the fall", especially since there are typically ideas floating
> around about a cosmic, or natural fall, where the entire realm of nature was
> corrupted. This type of view, science would reject, and rightly so.
> However, if we see the fall as the entrance of human sin and the brokenness
> of human relationship (with God, man, and creation) then we're clear.
>
> Bethany
>
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Received on Mon May 5 11:52:06 2008